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Pakistan will come on monitor, if not today then tomorrow: Rajnath Singh on ceasefire violations

The fact that Pakistan sought to deescalate the situation and India kept rejecting it, makes Pakistan's story all the more credible. Keep that in mind, to whomever is applauding Indian action.


You will believe whatever your army tells you, just like Pakistanis will believe the PA. What are you getting out of this argument? Soldiers are dead on both sides, this is not a tome to argue, this is a time to start trying to get your politicians to stop antagonizing the situation, and that goes for Pakistani members here as well.

The last thing Pakistan needs is a second front to deal with, and for India to be distracted from dealing with China.
Everytime there is firing at LoC the first casualties are from the Indian side. India is even ready to consider LoC as border. India has nothing to gain from this firing, nothing. whereas Pakistan thinks that continuous firing will keep the issue alive. PA also gives cover firing to infiltrate the terrorists, militants or Mujahids whatever you call them. Now there is a change in tactics by Indian Army at the behest of political bosses that they should retaliate and repulse any provocation from pakistani side. If India initiates the firing then why India suffers the first casualty? Indian Army is known for taking action only after political leadership's approval while Pak Army considers itself the ultimate power center and none of their acts are open for criticism.
Border firing has never escatated to a war so there is no point in talking about opening a second front. its just an excuse provided by pakistan to accuse india of starting the firing.
 
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How Indian Jawans are ambushed and killed, there are videos on you tube. There is also a video of Beheaded head of Indian Jawan (Though the face is not clearly visible). Pakistan is responsible for attack on indian soil from Pakistan side. They can not wash their hand simply saying that it is a work of non state actor.

Let us hope that this bloody game will stop in 2015.
 
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You know when I see the headlines about white flag, surrender etc..... I wonder what we have reduced ourselves to. Pathetic to see gloating over these deaths. Whether the Pakistanis can realistically agree to convert the LC to IB or not, there is much to be gained from reducing these type of face offs. Unfortunately that is something only the Pakistanis can do since as long as militants are being facilitated, there will be these kind of news on a regular basis. We need an agreement to freeze the Kashmir dispute for a period of 20-25 years atleast.

The biggest issue I see is that one side sees this conflict from a religious/emotional angle and the other from a nationalistic one..
We need to take either one out of the equation and let practicality take precedence...

As stated earlier, there is much to be gained by being pragmatic, the cost benefit analysis of "freezing" this conflict shouts like a loudspeker...but once emotions are involved, all sense and logic goes out the drain.
 
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India hits back, Pakistan seeks talks. At a flag meeting, India cowardice at full display. Its kills those who came for a flag meeting. This is the depravity of this enemy we are up against.

Now wait for our response!

Yes we are waiting.
 
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Unrealistic, when the COAS of Pakistan is on record saying Kashmir is their jugular vein, there is no way a freeze will be agreed to.

I don't like even one of our soldiers being killed, what happened today is happening for so long despite all the talks which kept happening.

Demarches were served, diplomatic relations soured so many times that its a routine affair now. A different approach is required and at the face of a adversary which is bent on making an issue its jugular vein there is no logical way out.
We can only payback in kind cause no solution keeping in mind the situation will favor Pakistan.

I agree that is not likely in the least, I didn't claim that it was possible. Nor have I said that India should not retaliate. I have held for long that retaliation should be hard & effective.However I have great distaste for the kind of media coverage that there has been in this instance. The deaths are an absolute waste, I pointed out in response to a Pakistani poster's comment that this was indeed unnecessary and a way needs to be found to stop it. Does not mean that a way will be found. Till then, these type of incidents will continue.
 
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The biggest issue I see is that one side sees this conflict from a religious/emotional angle and the other from a nationalistic one..
We need to take either one out of the equation and let practicality take precedence...

As stated earlier, there is much to be gained by being pragmatic, the cost benefit analysis of "freezing" this conflict shouts like a loudspeker...but once emotions are involved, all sense and logic goes out the drain.
Looks like you have not understood Pakistan. They signed Simla agreement with India and still talk of UN resolution of 1948. They agreed to settle the kashmir issue bilaterally but raise it at every international forum. So as you suggest they would agree to freeze the issue but will continue to create trouble for India. They can always say like in past that 26/11 was masterminded by RAW, kasab was an indian, Hafiz Sayeed, Lakhvi are social workers, dawood ibrahim is businessman, border firing is started by indian army, kashmiri terrorists are home grown and pakistan only provides moral support to kashmiri militants............ so whats the meaning of such a freeze?
 
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What ever the scenario is... At EOD Kashmir is an integral part of India... Pakistanis hate themselves so much for not being able to do anything about it!
 
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Reacting to unabated ceasefire violations by Pakistan, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Islamabad does not seem to learn any lesson.

"Pakistan does not like to stay quiet even on New Year day. They started (cross-border) firing at 12.30 pm and don't seem to learn (any) lesson," Parrikar said.

In an obvious reference to Pakistan and China, he also said, "We are surrounded in northern boundaries by two neighbours who are not very comfortable with us."

Pakistan Rangers today targeted 13 border outposts in Samba sector, a day after an Indian jawan and four Pakistani soldiers were killed in exchange of fire.

India said it will lodge a strong protest with Pakistan over the ceasefire violations, the third along the International Border in the past three days and seventh in last eight days.

Responding to Pakistan's ceasefire violations, Parrikar had said yesterday that the Indian security forces should not hold back in the face of firing and must retaliate with "double the force".

Parrikar who was in Bengaluru described the city as "the brain of India" in Space research. "We are thankful to Bangalore."

"Our culture.... our scientists take part in space missions but will not forget to offer pooja because this is our culture. We are proud of our culture. Our culture teaches us how to behave in the society. It teaches how to behave with elders."

Parrikar was speaking at an event organized by "Adamya Chetana", an NGO working in the field of social development managed by Union minister Ananth Kumar's wife Tejaswini.


News Worms
 
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Everytime there is firing at LoC the first casualties are from the Indian side. India is even ready to consider LoC as border. India has nothing to gain from this firing, nothing. whereas Pakistan thinks that continuous firing will keep the issue alive. PA also gives cover firing to infiltrate the terrorists, militants or Mujahids whatever you call them. Now there is a change in tactics by Indian Army at the behest of political bosses that they should retaliate and repulse any provocation from pakistani side. If India initiates the firing then why India suffers the first casualty? Indian Army is known for taking action only after political leadership's approval while Pak Army considers itself the ultimate power center and none of their acts are open for criticism.
Border firing has never escatated to a war so there is no point in talking about opening a second front. its just an excuse provided by pakistan to accuse india of starting the firing.
From what has been said, it was not India that suffered the first casualty; nor has this been completely true in the past either.

I'm not here to argue who's right and wrong, I'm here to argue for calm.

Honestly the Kashmir record has gotten so bloody boring...We gain so much from just turning the LOC into IB..end this stupid conflict. Its now becoming a war of ideologies, only problem is the abundance of hypocrites on both sides.
During Musharraf's era, India and Pakistan almost agreed, and apparently India rejected the proposal in the last minute due to elections or something; but yes, at this point, there is little reason to believe that Kashmir will ever be united again.

But why? This shouldn't be happening to begin with...it would be childish for us to find the entity to blame rather than a solution to the problem itself
It's more than to see who's at fault, it will also make whomever is responsible think twice before starting aggression, because there will be visual evidence.

You are among the very few on your side thinking out loud. Your establishment does not want to ignore Kashmir (for very good reasons). As for willingness, India is ok with the status quo and so is the world, only Pakistan is not.
The status quo is a major problem. India is not okay with it either, if it were, Musharraf would have gotten his deal with India, but he didn't. The truth is that budging on Kashmir is political suicide in both countries, and neither side is willing to budge.

Also, keep in mind that just because I think Kashmir should be ignored until it is the last item on the list, that I'm somehow saying India is right. I'm simply being logically minded. If India is willing to budge on the rhetoric of Kashmir being integral to India, you'll find plenty of support from Pakistani side willing to negotiate peace with India; After all, every issue between the two stems from Kashmir, if Kashmir is resolved, neither side has any reason to be hostile to one another.
 
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Good work by BSF. We should give proper response of any unprovoked attacks.
 
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Looks like you have not understood Pakistan. They signed Simla agreement with India and still talk of UN resolution of 1948. They agreed to settle the kashmir issue bilaterally but raise it at every international forum. So as you suggest they would agree to freeze the issue but will continue to create trouble for India. They can always say like in past that 26/11 was masterminded by RAW, kasab was an indian, Hafiz Sayeed, Lakhvi are social workers, dawood ibrahim is businessman, border firing is started by indian army, kashmiri terrorists are home grown and pakistan only provides moral support to kashmiri militants............ so whats the meaning of such a freeze?

Personally speaking, I give two hoots about what happens in Pakistan..To me India, its development and its rise is what matters.
The Kashmir conflict has had us putting our focus on the wrong issues...this is the time India needs to develop economically, socially and militarily...or else we wont be part of what is about to become the new world order..
In order to do this, we need peace both internal and external...and scrapping it out with a smaller, irrelevant (in my opinion) enemy to our global ambitions is unnecessary..
Not saying that Pakistan can hamper our growth, but we are unnecessarily diverting our focus to minor irritants...

I'm more in favor of converting the LOC to IB, but I would compromise with a freeze as well..
The advantages are several..

Economically, we will be viewed as a stable country with a focus on peace...Foreign investors lap up these kinds of gestures.
Militarily, we can regroup and set our house in order, one that is riddled with corruption and huge delays
We can focus on the bigger picture and fortify our NEast which to me is way bigger of a threat from a boistrous China..
Lastly, we need Pakistan to be stable..We knock their feet out now and what we have is a time bomb in the making that we might feel the heat from as well (read their internal problems that could change their political outlook)


Even though Pakistans actions have been duplicitous at times, we have to do this for our own benefit, especially given that we literally have no interest in reuniting Kashmir...so to us status quo serves welll.
And no one is saying that we go play twister with them after this...freeze simply means that we consolidate our position, let saner heads prevail and come to the table at a later point.

I see nothing wrong in it.

Also, keep in mind that just because I think Kashmir should be ignored until it is the last item on the list, that I'm somehow saying India is right. I'm simply being logically minded. If India is willing to budge on the rhetoric of Kashmir being integral to India, you'll find plenty of support from Pakistani side willing to negotiate peace with India; After all, every issue between the two stems from Kashmir, if Kashmir is resolved, neither side has any reason to be hostile to one another.

This much I can confirm, that the integration of Kashmir into India has become as irreversible as the existence of the Pakistani state when it seperated from India...that ship has sailed and reversing that process is next to impossible..

In the Indian mindset, Kashmir is India...even if we change the constitution, the Indian minds cannot be changed...

Pakistan will need to come to terms with this. Only option is LOC = IB, every other formula is as good as failed in my opinion.

Do remember, peace with India is a bigger priority for Pakistan than it is for India....and one can only negotiate with an upper hand. Pakistan has no hand when it comes to India at least at this stage...
 
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This much I can confirm, that the integration of Kashmir into India has become as irreversible as the existence of the Pakistani state when it seperated from India...that ship has sailed and reversing that process is next to impossible..

In the Indian mindset, Kashmir is India...even if we change the constitution, the Indian minds cannot be changed...

Pakistan will need to come to terms with this. Only option is LOC = IB, every other formula is as good as failed in my opinion.

Do remember, peace with India is a bigger priority for Pakistan than it is for India....and one can only negotiate with an upper hand. Pakistan has no hand when it comes to India at least at this stage...
And this is why Kashmir needs to be ignored until later on, because there is just too much disagreement. If you and I can disagree civilly, imagine the politicians pulling out their hair trying to do the same, but having to deal with domestic politics.

As much as I despise Musharraf, i have always believed his proposal was the best chance for both nations to achieve peace. There is talk within Pakistan to revive it, as India seemed quite eager for it as well, but only shelved it due to domestic politics. I still think it's the best chance to solve Kashmir.
 
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As much as I despise Musharraf, i have always believed his proposal was the best chance for both nations to achieve peace. There is talk within Pakistan to revive it, as India seemed quite eager for it as well, but only shelved it due to domestic politics. I still think it's the best chance to solve Kashmir.

Seriously?

You don't find the concept of "porous borders" in Kashmir to be a nightmare scenario? Especially given the current crop of folks in Pakistan (and to some extent in India) that are defying what the civilian govt. as well as the army has mandated?

I do agree with more autonomy, but the rest of the proposal needs to be updated to take into account the current political and social scenarios in both countries.
 
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Seriously?

You don't find the concept of "porous borders" in Kashmir to be a nightmare scenario? Especially given the current crop of folks in Pakistan (and to some extent in India) that are defying what the civilian govt. as well as the army has mandated?

I do agree with more autonomy, but the rest of the proposal needs to be updated to take into account the current political and social scenarios in both countries.
Why would it be a nightmare scenario? By the time an agreement is in place, more than likely there will be rationally minded people on both sides. Why do I believe this? Because rationally minded people are the only ones who'd ever get an agreement done in the first place.
 
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Why would it be a nightmare scenario? By the time an agreement is in place, more than likely there will be rationally minded people on both sides. Why do I believe this? Because rationally minded people are the only ones who'd ever get an agreement done in the first place.

My friend, if the people of our country followed the laws set by our governments and constitution, we would already be develeoped nations!!

Even if our governments agree to a deal, there will always be elements using the garb of religion and nationalism overpowering practicality that will endanger such steps....
How are you going to bring the Hafiz Saeeds and the Bajrang Dals of our nation to terms with this settlement?

The Musharaff formula doesnt take Indian govt's writ out of Kashmir, it simply provides more autonomy and some joint mechanisms for governance in each individual parts...you and I can digest this,..the neanderthals across our borders dont!

Not to mention that with the Taliban and ISIS raising its ugly head, India would be wary of any such spillover into India from Pak...More reason why such a formula has gotten unrealistic in today's scenario
 
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