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Pakistan warns against Indian nuclear tests

This Prakash Karat is the head of the left buffoooons. So now you might understand the targeted audience.
That's the point no one gets. The Hyde Acts binds the US's actions to 123 and therefore binds India. If India wants to keep 123 alive, she have to abide by Hyde, there is no other way. The second she goes against Hyde, the US kills 123. It may not be India's act to kill 123 but the result will be the same. India goes against Hyde, India kills 123.
 
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That's the point no one gets. The Hyde Acts binds the US's actions to 123 and therefore binds India. If India wants to keep 123 alive, she have to abide by Hyde, there is no other way. The second she goes against Hyde, the US kills 123. It may not be India's act to kill 123 but the result will be the same. India goes against Hyde, India kills 123.

Yes, 123 dies. The thing is so what?

You have also to realize that 123 is the basis for cooperation with the world, not with only US.

Hyde is just for US. So if we accept the 123 as basis for NSG we can have cooperation with any country we want. You forget that America is not the only country in the world from which we seek cooperation. This 123 is the document which we take before NSG and IAEA and not hyde.

This is where I think that India has displayed the master stroke. By keeping the killer clauses all in hyde and resisting the clauses in 123, by testing we kill the 123 with only one country(US) but the rest of the world is open to us. Effectively we have given the "impression" to the world that we are bound by hyde whereas we arent.

US can stop cooperation according to hyde, but say at that time we get cooperation from russia.... now US will have to stop all those countries.

I have read reports that we are talking to Niger, which is outside of NSG as a source of Ur.

Also sir, from my post above,
The regime is voluntary and there is no requirement for prior clearance of exports with the group, but as in the instance of Russia [Images]n supplies to India in 2001, the other members can exert pressure on individual countries, which violate the guidelines. Russia was able to supply in 2006 only with the implicit understanding of the US.
We have left all our possibilities open for the future.
 
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There are two different issues concerning this - Warhead size and the re-entry vehicle. With a warhead size of 15-40 KT, the AGNI-III might be able to accept anywhere from 3-5 warheads. However, with such a small yield, accuracy becomes the more important and thus far, India has demonstrated nothing anywhere close to an acceptable CEP other than city busting which means that you want the bigger warheads. A 40kt warhead will kill about 15 city blocks - not really a city buster.

Armscontrolwonk and the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists are the sources I mainly rely on for my data.

I have tried reading Armscontrolwonk for the post on indian missiles for more than 5 hrs- result :tsk: It is a good site but is on the side of "NPA" (a term which that site banned). If you could refer me to the exact post. I have read their evaluation on whether the bombs in 98 were of what size, but could not find the extrapolated post of what the capabilities of India are.

Basically what you are saying is we have the reentry vehicle(MIRV), but the missile CEP might not be good? We also do have the required fission designs for warhead. We have not yet perfected the fusion device. Am I getting you right?

Well I am not as much worried about the missile and CEP because even if we test no country is even bat an eyelid(except of course pakistan and china). So given time, I expect that to be perfected.
 
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Yes, 123 dies. The thing is so what?

You have also to realize that 123 is the basis for cooperation with the world, not with only US.

Hyde is just for US. So if we accept the 123 as basis for NSG we can have cooperation with any country we want. You forget that America is not the only country in the world from which we seek cooperation. This 123 is the document which we take before NSG and IAEA and not hyde.
You're ignoring NPT. Hyde was designed for the US to get around NPT, not kill NPT. All NSG countries will use similar legislations to get around NPT. In short, once you break Hyde, you break all rules to get around NPT and the results will be the same - sanctions. India is getting away with nothing.
 
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You're ignoring NPT. Hyde was designed for the US to get around NPT, not kill NPT. All NSG countries will use similar legislations to get around NPT. In short, once you break Hyde, you break all rules to get around NPT and the results will be the same - sanctions. India is getting away with nothing.

Nope sir,
I am not ignoring NPT. What you are ignoring is NPT is not the problem for us. NSG is...
NPT started in 1970. We got russian help all through 80's, 90's and until last year for the 1000MW projects. So what changed in the middle?

Well the NSG(note not NPT), passed a rule(exactly speaking guideline) saying that non-NPT(India, Pakistan, Israel) countries will have no help from NSG from 1992 or the date of joining NSG. Uptil now India and Pakistan are getting help under what are the called the grandfather clauses. These clauses basically mean if the members of the NSG have signed agreements before that date, they are allowed to continue the help till the agreements are complete, but no new agreement/ projects are to be made.

Right now, the duration of the grandfather clauses is coming to an end. So the NSG countries cannot transfer any nuclear technology to non-NPT countries in the future.
(copied from a previous post of mine in a different thread)

It is this thing which we are trying to break- not NPT.

All we need when we test is that the critical countries for us say that the testing is not against NPT(which technically speaking isnt) and basically we lose nothing.

The timing of this deal is not out of the blue. If one had observed the timelines, the moment russia joined the NSG, we could have actually forecasted this deal.
 
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That's the point no one gets. The Hyde Acts binds the US's actions to 123 and therefore binds India. If India wants to keep 123 alive, she have to abide by Hyde, there is no other way. The second she goes against Hyde, the US kills 123. It may not be India's act to kill 123 but the result will be the same. India goes against Hyde, India kills 123.

As per you, do you think it is necessary for India to conduct more nuke tests?
 
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Bull, as India develops new technologies and newer bomb designs, eventually India will have to test the bombs to validate the new designs. There is no way around it, what depends is when India thinks that diplomatically it can get away with that.
 
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The timing of this deal is not out of the blue. If one had observed the timelines, the moment russia joined the NSG, we could have actually forecasted this deal.
And the result is? All NSG countries will still need Hyde similar legislation to get around the non-NPT country issue. You're looking at the trees and not the forest. It's a chain reaction. Hyde goes down - they all go down and India will still be under sanctions. You cannot expect countries to break their own laws and NPT, NSG are the laws in those countries.
 
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Basically what you are saying is we have the reentry vehicle(MIRV), but the missile CEP might not be good? We also do have the required fission designs for warhead. We have not yet perfected the fusion device. Am I getting you right?
I have not seen any evidence of a MIRV program within India. Technically speaking, India may have a warhead small enough to be MIRV but I have not seen any evidence of the RV program for it. And it's the CEP of the RV, not the missile.

Well I am not as much worried about the missile and CEP because even if we test no country is even bat an eyelid(except of course pakistan and china). So given time, I expect that to be perfected.
Those are two different issues. Missile-MIRV and nukes. India basically said they're not going to test nukes but they're still continuing development of at least the missile program.

I've thought further on this. I really don't know if India is going for MIRV. The current practices would seem to suggest to preclude that option. Warhead and delivery vehicle are currently being maintained seperately, ie store away from each other. MIRV only make sense military wise if they were already mated to the missile. After surviving a nuclear strike, there may not be enough warheads or missiles to do MIRV on them all.
 
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I have not seen any evidence of a MIRV program within India.
Sir,
None of the Indian missiles so far have MIRV built within them. There have been reports of Agni 3 will be having this feature incorporated,not in the current shape,but in different version which would be tested later in the year/next year, specially the sub launched version.

Add to this there are reports that Russian Akulas will be leased next year,plus Indian nuke subs getting into the water within couple of years. This seems to be around the same time as sub launched version of Agni3,which should be MIRV capable, will be tested.
 
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But India is counting on the increased Ur supply and that is where NPT sanctions will hurt. Also, I have less faith in India being able to do MIRV than what your scientists suggests. At this point in time, the Chinese, having decades more experience, have only managed to produce a warhead that is only MIRV capable in their DF-5s, not their DF-3s and JL-x.

Sir It has been clearly lead out there will be a state-of-the-art fuel reserve stockpile in India which will cater to the LWR's lifetime needs, the lifetime stockpile is something which is incorporated in the deal.

In that time our Thorium fuel cycle will mature which does not needs Uranium.

Thus I cannot see how cut of Uranium supply will hurt us.


Sir The chinese has decades of experience so does we, but yes until not tested I wont count on any reports stating we can do MIRV, but with the sort of RV we use which embodies control and propulsion and guidance in it all the way to bust unlike old generation RV's , For a succesful MIRV all is needed is succesful orbital injection due to the completely autonomous nature of the RV's.
 
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40 years way too long for me to predict with any sort of confidence. At most I look at 5 years with 10 years as a weapons procurement life cycle. Thorium would have no impact during this period and thus 123 access to Ur is currently a must if India is do both - a civie energey program and a nuke weapons platform.

We dont need 123 to increase our Nuke weapons programme, Please read tellis et al and I have explained this before. With whatever we have if we want we can have thousands of warhead, but sir our arsenal I believe is much less than what we can do.

sir saying thorium will have no impact within a decade is mistaken, we are manufacturing our second stage Thorium programme and we are soon to begin manufacturing the third stage thorium programme. By manufacturing I mean all designs are complete and manufacturing reactors.

The need of 123/LWR's is to provide a smooth transition in developement-deployment phase of Thorium based reactors, thus developers can take their time and transit things smoothly instead oh hurrying through for the immediate need of power.

Sir we are into over 40 years of thorium research.

If AGNI-III is to come on as a MIRV platform in 10 years, then your warhead development must be now. They must go hand-in-hand or the AGNI-III will be a single warhead rocket (which is more likely).

Agni 3 is not MIRV but Agni 3++/3SL/4 will be MIRV, We dont need to design a 'new' Warhead the RV MK4 with the existing warhead is more than enough. Sir the MIRV system in Indias case wont be like the older generation MIRV, The RV's are completely and completely independent of the Launcher. There will be a payload faring in sub-orbital trajectory which will carry the MIRV's attached to it.

There are several reasons to keep testing. One is development. The other is the reliability of the arsenal. Open source materials suggests a 40% failure rate of the world's nuclear arsenals from failure to launch to failed initialization of the device. Before the moratorium on testing by the N5, all five N5 powers rushed to complete a series of tests - not to develop new weapons but to determine the viability of their arsenals.

Sir I'm not doubting the reliability of weapons off N5, let me state these things,

1. We dont have anything that will give us MT yields nor we need something of that sort.

2. Our Primary S1 device that was tested the first stage yielded some around 25 to 30 KT (have to check) the total yield with second stage was somewhere around 40KT (have to check again), it is very simple nuclear science with that payload you can easily take your yield to 200 KT (just with the first stage yield even if it is less than 20KT), similarly if you test a 200 KT yield you can easily have a 1MT yield using the same design. Remember Sir our second generation warheads (the second gen is what I vaguely put) was a 200 KT device which was not tested but a more smaller efficient design was later tested, Also incase you dont know we still produce Tritium which boosts yields by a LOT margin Please read it, It is actually from Janes. Tritium from Power Plants gives India an H-bomb capability

3. There is no question about what we tested being not-reliable, We had our own supercomputer that time and there was some questions raised by some of NPI's (non ploriferation idiots), Each of them was at that time systematically proven wrong bu DAE's writeups themselves, If there was a need for more tests we could have done that before. If you read Russian izvestia newspaper that time, they had lots of interesting articles regarding Indias test from Russian scientists opinions et al.

4. What we tested was our third gen warhead design, the second gen warhead design was not tested, first generation was tested in 1974.


India has not even began to do that and maybe won't need to for another 10 years since the arsenal is relatively young but in 10 years time, the arsenal's reliability will come into question and India will have to answer that somehow.

Sir I did not quite get this are you stating that Do we need to test in future? If yes and If we do we will make sure 123 having very little effect on us. We need to test if and only if we need yields more than 200~300 KT's.


Sir Please read Agni [Strategic Ballistic Missile] relating to missile. I think your not informed of Indias warhead developements, we dont need to deploy a new warhead as of now at all for having MIRV.
 
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There are two different issues concerning this - Warhead size and the re-entry vehicle. With a warhead size of 15-40 KT, the AGNI-III might be able to accept anywhere from 3-5 warheads. However, with such a small yield, accuracy becomes the more important and thus far, India has demonstrated nothing anywhere close to an acceptable CEP other than city busting which means that you want the bigger warheads. A 40kt warhead will kill about 15 city blocks - not really a city buster.

Armscontrolwonk and the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists are the sources I mainly rely on for my data.

Sir your totally not-informed about Indias missile developement, I'd have to bring up pile of reports to prove the CEP and you have to read piles of biographies, I'll reply you in very short manner.

The placement accuracy in GTO (involving powered flight of 1000 seconds much of it in sub-G or gravity free environment) is far more complicated and delicate than that of the sub-orbital trajectory of an IRBM. Thus the GSLV-D2 and F01 GTO Apogee accuracy of 1965 PPM and 361 PPM respectively compares with Agni-II's 40 meter CEP at IRBM ranges with 13 PPM accuracy.

Accuracy is also defined by the type of RV you use and your injection accuracy, The RV we used in Agni 2 AT are RV MK2's which are completely independent post boost vehicle embodiing propulsion, control and guidance right till its bust. A small info on RV MK2 on Agni 2 AT which forms the mainstray of Indian nuke delivery vehicle.

R. RAMACHANDRAN Issue 9, Apr. 24 - May. 07, 1999 "This is because the solid fuel is allowed to burn fully, which means that the velocity increment achieved before re-entry could be more or less from the mission perspective. Further, there is considerable dispersion in the burn time of solid fuels. Any compensation that is given to the missile during its ballistic phase (which happens once the second stage is fully burnt out) should be based on on-board sensor data and should be amenable to being adjusted reactively. These small force thrusters are liquid-fuel-driven and provide small increments in appropriate directions to shape the trajectory depending upon the target of the mission. It is these thrusters that give manoeuvrability during the re-entry phase. This has apparently been optimised through on-board software which, based on the initial trajectory fed in, does an appropriate "velocity trimming".

We have moved from RV MK2 to RV MK3 and RVMK4.
 
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That's the point no one gets. The Hyde Acts binds the US's actions to 123 and therefore binds India. If India wants to keep 123 alive, she have to abide by Hyde, there is no other way. The second she goes against Hyde, the US kills 123. It may not be India's act to kill 123 but the result will be the same. India goes against Hyde, India kills 123.

Sir there are 'many' clauses in 123 and in our atomic energy act that will go against Hyde.

One of them is,

1. We dont stop co-operating with Iran.
2. Hyde is to be seriously deluding themselve to believe we will sign FMCT.

I can go on, So no We will not obey what Hyde tells us but what 123 tells us, while it is upto US to dissolve Hyde along with 123 based on if we violate Hyde or not, 2 points above we openly stated we are not going to do. The only thing that will recieve political pressure on US to end co-operation is If India tests, then again the money back and things like that will have to be done as well.

India will need more tests. The question is when or do they want the reliability of their arsenal in question.

We will need more tests if we want more yield than 200~300KT.


I have not seen any evidence of a MIRV program within India. Technically speaking, India may have a warhead small enough to be MIRV but I have not seen any evidence of the RV program for it. And it's the CEP of the RV, not the missile.

Sir we have decades and decades old RV programme, We developed our space vehicles first and then Missiles unlike some countries and oh, Arms control week has lots and lots of incorrectness in their reports as well.

Here is one source,

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/feb102004/372.pdf

Multiple Independently Targetted
Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV)

Reusable missions and MIRVs are future
systems that would gain from carbon
nanotubes, nanocarbon reinforced ceramics,
smart structures and advanced materials.
India has developed propulsion and
re-entry systems of aerospace vehicles
that need to operate in high temperature
regimes such as 3000–5000°C and meet
the aero thermal environment of re-entry.
Scientists have successfully flight-tested
the unique all-carbon composite re-entry
heat shield with multi-directional carbon–
carbon re-entry nose tip and control
surfaces in the AGNI missile systems.
 
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