Pakistan-US joint air exercise - Falcon Talon III

[SQ8]

Military relations have developed on a seperate track and are great backchannels for diplomacy.

 

[CriticalThought]

Military relations have developed on a seperate track and are great backchannels for diplomacy.

Translation: Military relations are a great way for the Americans to control the power center.

Establish relations with those in de facto command of the country and the nukes, and ensure American vested interests are served. At American behest, Generals and Air Marshals with Western leanings have established an order of bigotry, bias, and discrimination against religious minded folks. They have made poor decisions with regards to indigenization of electronic chip making because who needs to spend all that money when everything is available? Similarly for materials science and overall manufacturing. The problem with cozying up is the establishment of an implicit trust. The Americans have broken this implicit trust time and time again at the hour of our existential crises, and yet we view this toxic relationship as beneficial?

 

[SQ8]

Translation: Military relations are a great way for the Americans to control the power center.

Establish relations with those in de facto command of the country and the nukes, and ensure American vested interests are served. At American behest, Generals and Air Marshals with Western leanings have established an order of bigotry, bias, and discrimination against religious minded folks. They have made poor decisions with regards to indigenization of electronic chip making because who needs to spend all that money when everything is available? Similarly for materials science and overall manufacturing. The problem with cozying up is the establishment of an implicit trust. The Americans have broken this implicit trust time and time again at the hour of our existential crises, and yet we view this toxic relationship as beneficial?

So far the people causing the most murder/killing along with facilitating crime in Pakistan are “religious minded” folk- to me these false flag bearers and religious bigots are the true eternal enemy of Pakistan and the doom of muslims worldwide; so lets agree to disgaree

 

[CriticalThought]

So far the people causing the most murder/killing along with facilitating crime in Pakistan are “religious minded” folk- to me these false flag bearers and religious bigots are the true eternal enemy of Pakistan and the doom of muslims worldwide; so lets agree to disgaree

Religious people have been in Pakistan since its inception, yet things such as suicide bombings were unheard of. So why did this phenomenon emerge during the first decade of 2000s? Clearly, something changed.

I have had the displeasure of having discussed this issue with some of the most representative liberals and 'civil society' in the country. A retort from a lady: "So things should hit rock bottom before they can become better, right?" Implying that the open season of brutality should reach a crescendo. This was said in mid 2000s, and lo and behold we had APS some years later. So can you say this isn't premeditation to tarnish the image of Islam and Islamic people in the country?

How can you conveniently forget that TTP is sponsored by CIA and RAW? But you want friendly relations with USAF and corridors of love with Indians. More than the bloodletting by TTP, Pakistan's existential base has been destroyed through secular, worldly, stooges of Americans and friends of Indian businessmen. Biased much?

 

[maximuswarrior]

Religious people have been in Pakistan since its inception, yet things such as suicide bombings were unheard of. So why did this phenomenon emerge during the first decade of 2000s? Clearly, something changed.

I have had the displeasure of having discussed this issue with some of the most representative liberals and 'civil society' in the country. A retort from a lady: "So things should hit rock bottom before they can become better, right?" Implying that the open season of brutality should reach a crescendo. This was said in mid 2000s, and lo and behold we had APS some years later. So can you say this isn't premeditation to tarnish the image of Islam and Islamic people in the country?

How can you conveniently forget that TTP is sponsored by CIA and RAW? But you want friendly relations with USAF and corridors of love with Indians. More than the bloodletting by TTP, Pakistan's existential base has been destroyed through secular, worldly, stooges of Americans and friends of Indian businessmen. Biased much?

The Americans can suck up as much as they like. It is too late. The damage is beyond repair. The Americans made sure of it since the last 18 years.

This insignificant exercise won't do anything for the broken relationship between Pakistan and the US.

We understand why the Americans are suddenly so desperate to hold an exercise with Pakistan. Pakistan is the same country they accuse and vilify of all sorts. It won't have any meaningful impact.

The leadership, both civilian and military, fully understand how to keep the Americans at an arms length. Our real ally is China. America can never take its place. Let them come since they are pleading, but they won't even get a lukewarm reception.

 

[Raider 21]

Rather trust a fuking snake than mericunts.

You got the Pak government and political parties in place of the snakes....

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Bottom line whether we like it or not....our armed forces are not equipped, trained or indoctrinated to fight a super power and take them head on. Fighting through a proxy on foreign land when top nine military powers amongst the top ten are behind you is one thing but standing against the lone superpower is....well, a tall order, today.

That is the reason, rhetoric aside, sanity prevails in the corridors of power where reality is much somber and stark. Bombastic claims will get us into a shit hole very quickly if the saner backdoor diplomacy is not followed. US does that too.

And for those who think that others will come to our aid, no one will, even China will back out of an open confrontation with US and its so called allies at this point in time. The cost is just too much to pay for them.
They will also advise GoP to play it low for another 10 years. Untill China is fully geared up. Only then things will be much more interesting.

Some of you folks wont like what i have written, but this is the reality whether we like it or not.

This exercise will have its own benefits for us. After all, we have always shown superior skills in air war thanks to our training with western air forces.

Such training is not a one way street, it does benefit both sides. Isolating ourselves is not the answer. China has not engaged in active combat for a while. The last time they did in Indo-China, they got a bloody nose as did US.

But since then both countries have changed their doctrine, and tactics however US has been engaged in atleast four major conflicts that involved extensive use of air power. We can benefit from interacting with them:

Air to air refueling
Dissimilar aircraft combat including F22 and its hovering and thrust vectoring capability.
Operating under extensive jamming
Exposure to "Enemy" combat tactics.
etc.

My2C worth

 

[araz]

Rather trust a fuking snake than mericunts.

Ithink one needs to be pragmatic. Allow me to give you an example. The Saudis have funded our Government for decades and we havs no reason to deny that their help at critical junctures has been pivotal in getting Paklands out of the pile of doo doo it had dug itself into. Yet when they asked us for contributions towards the Yemen war (at least on the surface) we refused. Does that make us untrustworthy. We went back to the Saudis and they helped us out again.
The lesson that needs to be learned by Paklands and its people is that ANY country helps you because its interests are alligned with yours. So why do we blame the US for our own stupid perceptions.
Now as to this notion that the US want to take a peek into your defence systems. COME ON. Yara in a country where every file gets sold for a couple of thousnd rupees, where most of your communication systems have US components do you think there is anything that you have which is hidden from them. How much interest would the JFT generate for the US playing around with the 22s and 35s.
So that is not the reason for them coming. If you analyze the situation closely you will realize that difference of techniques are the only thing that can surprise them. This is something you might be able to do once or twice but not always. They also are exposing their methodology for attacking and defending and you leearn from it and evolve. So it could be a 2 way street and the benefits favour PAF more than the US.
THE US is only coming to repair some of the damage that Donald Trump has wreaked. The military to military relations have always been good and their is an understanding of each other's positions. Pakistan has now got a different set of priorities but the US wants to keep Pak lands in the loop by maintaining good relations which is our need as well. So understand the situation on the ground and put your best foot forward. You can only learn from experiences.
A

 

[maximuswarrior]

Bottom line whether we like it or not....our armed forces are not equipped, trained or indoctrinated to fight a super power and take them head on. Fighting through a proxy on foreign land when top nine military powers amongst the top ten are behind you is one thing but standing against the lone superpower is....well, a tall order, today.

That is the reason, rhetoric aside, sanity prevails in the corridors of power where reality is much somber and stark. Bombastic claims will get us into a shit hole very quickly if the saner backdoor diplomacy is not followed. US does that too.

And for those who think that others will come to our aid, no one will, even China will back out of an open confrontation with US and its so called allies at this point in time. The cost is just too much to pay for them.
They will also advise GoP to play it low for another 10 years. Untill China is fully geared up. Only then things will be much more interesting.

Some of you folks wont like what i have written, but this is the reality whether we like it or not.

This exercise will have its own benefits for us. After all, we have always shown superior skills in air war thanks to our training with western air forces.

Such training is not a one way street, it does benefit both sides. Isolating ourselves is not the answer. China has not engaged in active combat for a while. The last time they did in Indo-China, they got a bloody nose as did US.

But since then both countries have changed their doctrine, and tactics however US has been engaged in atleast four major conflicts that involved extensive use of air power. We can benefit from interacting with them:

Air to air refueling
Dissimilar aircraft combat including F22 and its hovering and thrust vectoring capability.
Operating under extensive jamming
Exposure to "Enemy" combat tactics.
etc.

My2C worth

We did pretty well for the past 18 years to defend our homeland against a 5th gen warfare imposed by the US. We had to bleed and sacrifice, but we stood up and looked the enemies straight in the eyes. The US also made use of NATO forces and rougue Indian intelligence apparatus to seek cover. The Americans used every ploy in the book to harm and attack Pakistan. It didn't go well for them. They used brazen Salala like attacks and they also used ethnic and religious faultlines to create chaos. I shouldn't be reiterating any of this because you already know this more than any of us.

No one in their right mind would want a confrontation with US. No one is seeking a confrontation. Ordinary Pakistanis are simply sick and tired of a backstabbing and deceitful relationship with the US. The US is like a bloodsucking leech unwilling to let Pakistan go. The vast majority of Pakistanis want bare minimum relations with the US. The current relationship is just fine where Pakistan is not a client state seeking economic and military aid in exchange for extremely harmful favors. The people want an honest and a cordial relationship with China and the neighborhood. That doesn't equal to confrontation and hostility with the USA.

This exercise means zilch to the broken relationship between Pakistan and the US. The US is clearly recognizing how it has lost the war in Afghanistan. In the process it has utterly destroyed the relationship with Pakistan. To put in perspective, 18 years of bloodshed and carnage to be precise. This amount of destruction and misery cannot be merely fixed with an exercise between PAF and USAF.

By all means go ahead with the exercise, but don't expect relations to be normal. The relationship is broken and dysfunctional on many levels. Pakistan needs to remain neutral at best.

You don't shake hands with someone who tried to rob and kill you. Even if the killer is bigger, stronger and intimidating. As a little guy you keep distance.

 

[Tank131]

Sadly there are still people who are going to bend at any angle just to get those fuckin F-16s even if that costs the country alot more.


So does Israel whore it self out to receive that massive aid in military and otherwise? Or does Trump is whoring US out when it reached out to Pakistan to negotiate a peace settlement because it has become unbearable for the US in Afghanistan?
As for what the US wants regarding taliban is of no significance to Pakistan because if history is anything to go by, Pakistan follows its own interests and if those interests are aligned with a taliban government in Afghanistan, than so will it be.

The dog wags the tail in both senarios. Israels behavior hasnt changed one iota in the pursuit of aid. It follows its interests and the aid will come no matter what. I can tell you that Obama was no public friend of Israel and in fact the Republicans used Netanyahu to humilate him by inviting him to speak to the congress when Obama wouldn't even meet with him. And US asking Pakistans assistance is in the interest of the US.

What I am referring to, and what you seem to think is the tail wagging the dog. Pakistan changing its behavior or going against its interests for aid. Giving up influence on Talibs in no-ones interests (except india's) least of all the US or Pakistan. It took 10 years to get them to start talking to the US and then to it was only Pakistan that could do it. The notion that giving up Kashmir or CPEC will ever be in Pakistans interest is not even an arguable position (any politician that would do it will meet the same fate as Mussilini.. Dragged through the streets and hung up sp people could spit on his body). So yes, Pakistan doing any of the sated things (that i understand weren't actually being suggested) would be whoring itself out if they are not in the interest of a better Pakistan.

 

[CriticalThought]

Bottom line whether we like it or not....our armed forces are not equipped, trained or indoctrinated to fight a super power and take them head on. Fighting through a proxy on foreign land when top nine military powers amongst the top ten are behind you is one thing but standing against the lone superpower is....well, a tall order, today.

That is the reason, rhetoric aside, sanity prevails in the corridors of power where reality is much somber and stark. Bombastic claims will get us into a shit hole very quickly if the saner backdoor diplomacy is not followed. US does that too.

And for those who think that others will come to our aid, no one will, even China will back out of an open confrontation with US and its so called allies at this point in time. The cost is just too much to pay for them.
They will also advise GoP to play it low for another 10 years. Untill China is fully geared up. Only then things will be much more interesting.

Some of you folks wont like what i have written, but this is the reality whether we like it or not.

This exercise will have its own benefits for us. After all, we have always shown superior skills in air war thanks to our training with western air forces.

Such training is not a one way street, it does benefit both sides. Isolating ourselves is not the answer. China has not engaged in active combat for a while. The last time they did in Indo-China, they got a bloody nose as did US.

But since then both countries have changed their doctrine, and tactics however US has been engaged in atleast four major conflicts that involved extensive use of air power. We can benefit from interacting with them:

Air to air refueling
Dissimilar aircraft combat including F22 and its hovering and thrust vectoring capability.
Operating under extensive jamming
Exposure to "Enemy" combat tactics.
etc.

My2C worth

The US can be confronted, depending how much appetite you have for destruction. It is not just our armed forces that are not indoctrinated, prepared, and equipped. We are unprepared as a nation. The armed forces are constituted from the underlying population. There is no magic stick which will take 600000 personnel from an uneducated, poor population, and turn them into modern soldiers of the 21st century.

What I am against is an increasing cronyism between our forces and theirs. At times, this has benefited us greatly, such as the F-16 requested by Gen Zia, or the charisma of Ayub and the resultant concessions. But Ayub experienced the disloyalty in 65, and Zia was eliminated. These two examples should be eye openers. Yet, when I see irreligious, secular minded officers on top spots who are enamored with the West and look up to them as ideals, I fear we have lost without fighting a single battle. I shudder to think of the extent to which America controls the Pakistani Armed Forces. If I let my thought process loose, I even question the public spats we have had. Is it possible that Musharraf clued them about Osama Bin Laden? I clearly remember his address after the Lal Masjid debacle. His words: "And you won't believe the personality that we have found in there". Someone was found in Lal Masjid and transferred to an unknown location, and the matter was never discussed after that. Who was this 'personality'? Even I myself label these thoughts as conspiracy theories, but they make me uncomfortable.

Let me summarize the crux of the entire situation: for a nation that is so intellectually bankrupt and incompetent that it can not solve any of its own national problems, yes, our armed forces need to train with the best, even if the best are our sworn enemies. Without vision, foresight, innovation, rigor, scientific and technical expertise, and a sound financial backing, we cannot assert our own independence. We are mental slaves, and many amongst us are happy to be so. So yes, continue on. But please don't let the Americans assess any of the Chinese technologies.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The Americans were absolutely adamant, and actually steaming to see the Chinese here for the 6th time. And it is a high profile exercise too so no doubt our neighbours will be cheesed off.

I would rather wait for an official word on this before starting a thread
not doubting your sources but our military and non military relations are down graded to say observer level.
if news turns out to be a dud then thread will become troll fest
even if something does get planned it might be called off due to the volatile nature of American administration and the sudden call of withdrawal of troops from Syria and Afghanistan and a known Pakistani hater Khalil lizard in the region. everyone competes in US to hate on Pakistan.

Rather trust a fuking snake than mericunts.

the snakes in the American power corridors would love to see confrontations between the two countries rather than such exercises so lets not play in the hands of such snakes.

imagine a snake like Hussain Haqqani who tirelessly advocated against selling us Zulus saying they were going to be used against the Indians. that scumbag will be rolling in pain when he finds out this small token exercise is taking place (if it takes place at all)

 

[VCheng]

even if something does get planned it might be called off due to the volatile nature of American administration and the sudden call of withdrawal of troops from Syria and Afghanistan and a known Pakistani hater Khalil lizard in the region. everyone competes in US to hate on Pakistan.

That is an unfair generalization. The overriding principle is to serve US national interests, and when and where they align with Pakistan's, it always gets 100% support from just about everybody. Joint exercises are just one part of it.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pakistan is excited to send in our Pilots for this important training
Displaying our newly acquired Turkish Trainers


Yea...lets call it FalconUrBackStabNotForgotten

 

[CHI RULES]

Translation: Military relations are a great way for the Americans to control the power center.

Establish relations with those in de facto command of the country and the nukes, and ensure American vested interests are served. At American behest, Generals and Air Marshals with Western leanings have established an order of bigotry, bias, and discrimination against religious minded folks. They have made poor decisions with regards to indigenization of electronic chip making because who needs to spend all that money when everything is available? Similarly for materials science and overall manufacturing. The problem with cozying up is the establishment of an implicit trust. The Americans have broken this implicit trust time and time again at the hour of our existential crises, and yet we view this toxic relationship as beneficial?

Sir sorry to say in international relations the friends and foes change from time to time, when we blame USA for many misdeeds so with that we should not forget our so called brotherly Islamic countries who in Nineties played their dirty sectarian games in our beloved land and hundreds of innocent Muslims died. Even they collaborated to stop progress of Gawadar.
If we have not used efficiently our relations with USA then we should blame our selves rather than USA. This is a fact that F16s and other USA stuff has played a major role in protecting Pak borders for long, even USA second hand gadgets are quite effective against first hand/new gadgets of Russia/EU.