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Pakistan to get 2 nuclear reactors from China

Yes in general it was not possible but after USA's exclusive waiver program for India has paved the way for China to take a stand for Pakistan in a similar deal. Like somebody said If USA can do for India then why can't do china for Pakistan?

Like i said the influence of China on the world stage doesnt reflect within the NSG.China is a buyer not a seller of nuclear technology and buyers dont make rules.

Even now only one country,the US has the ability/influence to bring in the 45 member NSG to its line..No other country has that influence.

Thats the reason China doesnt have the power to give a nuclear deal to u like the US gave to us.

But as ur saying the US gives its approval to this then all izz well for u in procuring these two reactors.

Lets see how this one pans out.

btw: wats the curent that could be produced by these two reactors..i mean hw much MW..?
 
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Like i said the influence of China on the world stage doesnt reflect within the NSG.China is a buyer not a seller of nuclear technology and buyers dont make rules.

Even now only one country,the US has the ability/influence to bring in the 45 member NSG to its line..No other country has that influence.

Thats the reason China doesnt have the power to give a nuclear deal to u like the US gave to us.

But as ur saying the US gives its approval to this then all izz well for u in procuring these two reactors.

Lets see how this one pans out.

btw: wats the curent that could be produced by these two reactors..i mean hw much MW..?

soooo all china has to do is get the us to agree which the us says it has no problems with? sooo done deal then.
 
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Like i said the influence of China on the world stage doesnt reflect within the NSG.China is a buyer not a seller of nuclear technology and buyers dont make rules.

Even now only one country,the US has the ability/influence to bring in the 45 member NSG to its line..No other country has that influence.

Thats the reason China doesnt have the power to give a nuclear deal to u like the US gave to us.

But as ur saying the US gives its approval to this then all izz well for u in procuring these two reactors.

Lets see how this one pans out.

btw: wats the curent that could be produced by these two reactors..i mean hw much MW..?

previously it was said 325MW each and now i heard a rumour (dawn news + blogs) recently that each plant will be generating 650MW instead.

I could be wrong though
 
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If it is so they y did India go thru the gruelling NSG voting wen the US,Russia,France,UK were all supporting our stand.We could ve just went ahead and signed the deal with as many countries as we wanted.In NSG the assent of each and every country is necessary to do nuclear trade.
So no my friend they r not voluntary nor non-enforceable.the NSG rules are binding on it s members.
They are not enforceable, but if one country acts contrary to the NSG obligations, then the entire system collapses, which was the entire reason for setting up the NSG. But unlike an NPT violation for which Iran is facing sanctions, there is nothing enforceable in the NSG - it is merely a group of countries that has come to a common understanding on how to do business in nuclear technology in order to control its dissemination and prevent proliferation.

But because China does not want this system to collapse (it is negotiating 4G NPP's with the French and Russians) it is arguing that the CHASNUPP III and IV plants are covered under the original CHASNUPP agreement.

Agreed.If they had signed a deal ,not just agreed verbally then the Chinese have the full rights to honour this contract outside the NSG ambit.
That is a grey area legally, and since the NSG is not a legal system, so long as the other members do not raise too much of a fuss (the articles posted earlier indicate the US may look the other way) the deal will go through and not be considered a violation of the NSG rules.

That depends.But u can surely expect probs and protest from the non-proliferation hawks (just as we encountered) and remember inside the NSG there is one and only country that has the influence to bring all the members in line - US.
the Chinese are buyers in NSG not sellers.So get hold of US and ur problems willl be solved.
Again, if you would actually read the posts in the thread you would realize that an article on the US response (or lack of) was posted earlier by me. That article concludes, based on statements on the issue by US officials, that the deal is not going to be opposed by the US at this point in time.
I heard in Indian TV that China is gonna fund 80% of the project cost..True..?
China is providing substantial loans for the projects, I am not certain as to what proportion of the total cost their financing will come out to be.
 
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previously it was said 325MW each and now i heard a rumour (dawn news + blogs) recently that each plant will be generating 650MW instead.

I could be wrong though

I think the reference of 650 MW was to the combined capacity of the two plants.

On another thread I posted some details about the issues Pakistan faces in getting 600MW and 1000 MW plants from China - the NPP's of those capacities that China uses have a lot of foreign content (Japan and France I believe) and therefore would require the approval of those nations, and therefore the approval of the NSG.
 
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I think the reference of 650 MW was to the combined capacity of the two plants.

On another thread I posted some details about the issues Pakistan faces in getting 600MW and 1000 MW plants from China - the NPP's of those capacities that China uses have a lot of foreign content (Japan and France I believe) and therefore would require the approval of those nations, and therefore the approval of the NSG.

yes you are right, but recently dawn reported that each nuclear reactor will be 650MW each instead of previous design of 325MW. I tried to find that link but can't find it - it was also shared on PDF

Here is one statement i am quoting from Asian News Network

The reactors, of 650MW capacity each, would be twice the size of the two that China has already built for Pakistan at Chashma under a previous agreement. Chashma 1 began operating in 2000 while Chashma 2 will probably be activated next year.

You can go through these links - all sources claiming it to be 650MW each.

More Chinese nuclear reactors for Pakistan
China to build two nuclear reactors in Pakistan: Report- Hindustan Times
China to build two nuclear reactors in Pakistan
FT.com / Asia-Pacific - China to build reactors in Pakistan
China to Build Two Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan, FT Reports - BusinessWeek


I would still take it as a rumour until official sources does not confirm it once again.
 
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p.s.: Just because im arguing tyis doesnt mean im against the sale of the nuclear reactors to Pakistan.
The damage has already been done and both countries have nukes ..mayb over 100's of them.
Im just discussing the legalities of this case.


They are not enforceable, but if one country acts contrary to the NSG obligations, then the entire system collapses, which was the entire reason for setting up the NSG. But unlike an NPT violation for which Iran is facing sanctions, there is nothing enforceable in the NSG - it is merely a group of countries that has come to a common understanding on how to do business in nuclear technology in order to control its dissemination and prevent proliferation.

No...wat im saying is the rules of the cartel are enforceable on the member countries in it.
China will not face a sanction or an economic blockade if it violates it...But its deals with other countries like France etc for reactors will be cancelled and China will be shown the door of the NSG.As simple as that.
Still China doesnt have the power to armtwist the other countries like the US does.


But because China does not want this system to collapse (it is negotiating 4G NPP's with the French and Russians) it is arguing that the CHASNUPP III and IV plants are covered under the original CHASNUPP agreement.

As i said if this is true China is very well within its rights to carry out the deal.But they have to prove it without a doubt.

That is a grey area legally, and since the NSG is not a legal system, so long as the other members do not raise too much of a fuss (the articles posted earlier indicate the US may look the other way) the deal will go through and not be considered a violation of the NSG rules.

Actually its not enuff if the US just looks the other way.It should actively exercise the power to bring the Non-proliferation bloc (Austria,New-zealand,Ireland,swiss) to agree to this as China still doesnt have the power to arm-twist them.


Again, if you would actually read the posts in the thread you would realize that an article on the US response (or lack of) was posted earlier by me. That article concludes, based on statements on the issue by US officials, that the deal is not going to be opposed by the US at this point in time.

Good for u...But wat i think is US is doing the role of wat China did during the Indo-US nuclear deal.Dont oppose it on the face but act from the sidelines.
Lets c how this pans out.
 
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US may turn a blind eye to China-Pak N-deal

Washington, May 25: Even as two noted American experts asked the US to block the China-Pakistan nuclear deal, Washington indicated it would not come in the way if it was in compliance with the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) rules.

"I don't know if this will come up during the secretary's meetings in China this week," State Department spokesman PJ Crowley told reporters on Monday when asked if Secretary of State Hillary Clinton would take it up with her interlocutors in Beijing.

"We are talking to China more broadly about the implications of this deal. It has a lengthy history to it," he said when asked if the China-Pakistan deal would come up at the ongoing Strategic and Economic Dialogue with China in Beijing and the one with India here next week.

"But we will seek to make sure that should this deal go forward, it is in compliance with the rules of the Nuclear Suppliers Group," Crowley said.

Crowley's comments came as Lisa Curtis and Nicholas Hamisevicz, South Asia experts at Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank, urged the Obama administration to block the China-Pakistan deal as India and Pakistan had vastly different proliferation records.

There are signs of the Obama administration softening of its position towards Chinese- Pakistani nuclear cooperation, they said noting US officials have avoided pressing China against moving forward with a deal to supply two new nuclear reactors to Pakistan.

"The Obama administration's policy contrasts with that of the previous Bush administration, which actively discouraged additional Chinese assistance to Pakistan's nuclear programme," Curtis and Hamisevicz said.

"Given the widespread proliferation that resulted from the Pakistan-based AQ Khan network, as well as continued concerns about the existence of terrorist networks in Pakistan that seek access to nuclear weapons technology, a nod from Washington to further Chinese-Pakistani nuclear cooperation is short-sighted," they said.

The argument that the China-Pakistan nuclear reactor deal should be seen in the same light as the US-India civil nuclear deal "discounts the vastly different proliferation records of Pakistan and India, the different oversight requirements generally imposed by the US compared to China, and the prevalence of Pakistan-based terrorist groups seeking nuclear weapons technology," they said.

An Obama administration decision to allow the China-Pakistan nuclear deal to advance unhindered would be a high-stakes diplomatic gamble, the two experts argued. "Beijing would likely pocket US acquiescence while continuing only the most grudging cooperation on America's highest international priorities."

"At the same time, Pakistan's increased access to civilian nuclear technology without sufficient legal context and safeguards poses a potential proliferation threat and danger to nuclear safety and security on the Subcontinent," Curtis and Hamisevicz said.

US may turn a blind eye to China-Pak N-deal | Siasat
 
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US may not oppose Sino-Pak nuclear deal


Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 16:20 [IST]

Washington DC, May 25: The United States has hinted that it would not oppose the China-Pak nuclear deal if it is in recognition with the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) rules, said P J Crowley, the state department spokesman at a press meeting on Monday, May 24.


Buzz up!"We will seek to make sure that, should this deal go forward, it is in compliance with the rules of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG)," he said.


He said that he is not sure whether the issue would come up in the ongoing discussions with China as Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of the State, is in China. He said that US is talking to China more broadly about the implications of the nuclear deal.

Two noted American scholars on South Asia had previously hinted that there are signs of Obama administration to soften its response towards Sino-Pak nuclear cooperation.


United States | China Pak Nuclear Deal | Nuclear Suppliers Group | NSG - Oneindia News
 
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What else can the US do? China does not give squat to these concerns as they are well within the legal frame work of Pak China nuclear cooperation which by the way was well before China joined in the NSG.
 
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IMO it is also a test of US sincerity to a 'long term relationship' with Pakistan that they keep harping about yet have done nothing substantial upon so far.
 
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US has no moral grounds to oppose the deal in the first place...besides obama is already having a weak position in the region..
 
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We don't have any problem with Pakistan's civil nuke plants till they used for power generation only. Only concern is what if it is misused to bomb the peace and stability of the world.

why US will oppose it has closed its eyes in the past too??? The point is India is not objecting or raising the matter in International community and press.

We have got a US puppet as prime minister.
 
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Just one question ... when pakistan get it without NSG approval so why india waste its time for nuck deal ... because if this deal (pak-china) can happen so russia and france can also provide us technology without any nuke deal

is this deal is different from ours ????
 
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