Pakistan seeks new US deal after returning nine choppers

[VCheng]

The sad part about the way currently we keep biting each other on the backside is that there is a perfect helicopter available for you just across the border.

The same border that does not allow tomatoes to cross? Helicopters would be a taller order to allow.

 

[El Sidd]

Great. New toys

 

[Joe Shearer]

The same border that does not allow tomatoes to cross? Helicopters would be a taller order to allow.

We could always load the choppers to their safe carrying limit with tomatoes. Throw in a few potatoes as well.

When they came free we must say Jazaak Allah


Sir those who buy your choppers already returning them.

Since you return your choppers, too, willy nilly, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Since you return your choppers, too, willy nilly, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

We don't need falling angels but you can send Arjun and Tejas as a good will and we will display them on museum with note that (How to milk Nation with failed projects)

 

[Joe Shearer]

We don't need falling angels but you can send Arjun and Tejas as a good will and we will display them on museum with note that (How to milk Nation with failed projects)

Not a single Dhruv has failed in operation, except, I think, one lost in a blinding snowstorm, where the pilot took off in spite of repeated warnings; he felt obliged to deliver a life-saving payload. Not one.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was wrong. From 2005 to today, there have been 18 Dhruv crashes, out of 228 helicopters made.


Arjun is a very fine tank, and beat the T90 every time, except when panicky tankers who felt that Russian tanks were safe rigged the results. When the ministry asked for a neutral evaluation by a renowned tank manufacturer (not Russian), they gave it marks and an evaluation close to their own, which is among the top 3 in the western world.

As for Tejas, I am sorry that you want to be a smart arse about it; if you looked at it with open eyes, you might have a different opinion. I know it hurts for you to say so, for a loyal national with his heart in the right place, but all three were outstanding products, stymied by the unwillingness of the services to trust the DRDO, which had let them down so often, and also unwilling to trust Ministry of Defence Production units to supply in bulk. They had a mixed-up point; their greatest grief came from the Ordnance Factories Board, whereas these other three were HAL (Dhruv, doing very well), CVRDE to be transferred to a production unit (Arjun, never got started in full scale in the volumes that were possible) and HAL + private sector partners (Tejas, even now justifying the Air Force scepticism due to the low volumes that HAL can achieve).

The soldiers (and pilots) felt that they were defending their service against a monumental blunder; the scientists and technicians felt terribly let down that something as outstanding as their product should be baulked for non-technical reasons.

It's not a dick-measuring contest, so don't lunge for your zip just yet.

 

[Maarkhoor]

It's not a dick-measuring contest, so don't lunge for your zip just yet.

Agreed, its not but as per my best knowledge Arjun and Tejas a gone case.
Lets end it here and would like to give you more insight on appropriate thread.

 

[Yaseen1]

we should indegeniously develop helicopters on our own like we develop jf17 which is more difficult than to develop helicopter

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Not a single Dhruv has failed in operation, except, I think, one lost in a blinding snowstorm, where the pilot took off in spite of repeated warnings; he felt obliged to deliver a life-saving payload. Not one.

Perhaps South American wrecked them by design... and others who leased it grounded them..

But considering its origin ... German MB... And french engines... i wouldnt diss it.

Arjun is a very fine tank, and beat the T90 every time, except when panicky tankers who felt that Russian tanks were safe rigged the results. When the ministry asked for a neutral evaluation by a renowned tank manufacturer (not Russian), they gave it marks and an evaluation close to their own, which is among the top 3 in the western world.

Not really, it suffers from design flaws... which include a weak spot right on its turret... its main gun is obsolete.... its too fat for indian bridges,rails,transporters..... it suffers from several technical issues causing entire fleet to be grounded... and its imported all 75% of it.

As for Tejas, I am sorry that you want to be a smart arse about it; if you looked at it with open eyes, you might have a different opinion. I know it hurts for you to say so, for a loyal national with his heart in the right place, but all three were outstanding products, stymied by the unwillingness of the services to trust the DRDO, which had let them down so often, and also unwilling to trust Ministry of Defence Production units to supply in bulk. They had a mixed-up point; their greatest grief came from the Ordnance Factories Board, whereas these other three were HAL (Dhruv, doing very well), CVRDE to be transferred to a production unit (Arjun, never got started in full scale in the volumes that were possible) and HAL + private sector partners (Tejas, even now justifying the Air Force scepticism due to the low volumes that HAL can achieve).

The soldiers (and pilots) felt that they were defending their service against a monumental blunder; the scientists and technicians felt terribly let down that something as outstanding as their product should be baulked for non-technical reasons.

It's not a dick-measuring contest, so don't lunge for your zip just yet.

Yeah LCA is God's gift to aviation...

In reality it was a good project that got raped by HAL and indian airforce.

 

[Sankpal]

and what happen to the AH-1z viper are they coming or not ?
2nd thing that whole world knows that America is the best friend and allay of india not Pakistan
it always use Pakistan.

Practically, Russia is our best friend and logically, US is trying to be best friend

 

[saiyan0321]

The sad part about the way currently we keep biting each other on the backside is that there is a perfect helicopter available for you just across the border.

Military equipment Joe.

You sell these to nations you trust, ate assured that it will not be used against you and are secure that knowledge of its hardware and working won't effect you.

Even if we walk the path of peace tomorrow, it will take generations for military equipment sale and purchase comes to play.


As for the thread. Foolishness but nt unexpected.

Pakistan needs to be more self sufficient in military equipment technology especially aviation technology since in modern times, aerial field plays a massive part. On top of it all our entire focus is right now in the controlling of a 2400km border which passes through rivers and mountains. This requires more than fences. It requires aviation technology.

We should look into less " strings attached" options and work on a more domestic product.

 

[Joe Shearer]

NO surface warships, dependence on submarines and missiles for maritime defence; NO expensive aircraft, shift to missiles and affordable but large numbers of light multi-role aircraft; NO armoured corps, but helicopter and GEV mounted troops and supporting ordnance.

Light, yet extremely mobile and extremely hard-hitting.

we should indegeniously develop helicopters on our own like we develop jf17 which is more difficult than to develop helicopter

The reverse is true.

 

[Yaseen1]

NO surface warships, dependence on submarines and missiles for maritime defence; NO expensive aircraft, shift to missiles and affordable but large numbers of light multi-role aircraft; NO armoured corps, but helicopter and GEV mounted troops and supporting ordnance.

Light, yet extremely mobile and extremely hard-hitting.



The reverse is true.

please explain why reverse is true

 

[HAIDER]

Nothing rugged like Huey ...Best helicopter. All time lethal and low cost for anti insurgency

 

[Joe Shearer]

Perhaps South American wrecked them by design... and others who leased it grounded them..

But considering its origin ... German MB... And french engines... i wouldnt diss it.

The Ecuadoreans never did the basic maintenance, they didn't buy spares and they gave up half-way through. With its high-altitude capabilities, the Dhruv would have been just right. Incidentally, it was designed from the outset to be low-maintenance; the upshot is ironic.

Not really, it suffers from design flaws... which include a weak spot right on its turret... its main gun is obsolete.... its too fat for indian bridges,rails,transporters..... it suffers from several technical issues causing entire fleet to be grounded... and its imported all 75% of it.

Weak spot right on its turret? Could you give me some reference? I've been following this closely over the years, and this is the first reference that I've read about that. I'm not denying that you might have the advantage of an expert opinion from someone close to you, possibly a gunner, but I'd like to know if anyone else has spotted such a weakness.

You are aware, of course, that turrets can be modified and altered; a look at the profiles of the turrets of Russian tanks in successive iterations will make that point amply clear.

Why do you say the main gun is obsolete? I'm curious, because a deliberate design decision prompted the choice of that gun type. Again, nothing in the design of the tank prevents a replacement or modification, and if the Army had wanted it, they would have got it. So whoever is 'advising' you has second-guessed the Indian Army very comprehensively on the turret structure as well as the gun selection. Pretty good going. Unless, of course, this is your own original analysis, in which case, you are wasting your time.

The too fat objection was spotted pretty early in the day as a pathetic excuse. There is nothing saying that these tank formations have to be located in central India and have to be transported for thousands of kilometres by rail. There are ample options for locating these units closer to the border; considering the characteristics of the tank and its eminent suitability for desert operation, it is a no-brainer to select a concentration point where there is ample space. And no need for long-distance shipment.

They could be located in the foothills of Himachal or the foothills of Uttaranchal; in 25 kms, you are in the plains and it is a short distance to the Punjab-Haryana front from there. Not many bridges and choke points either. All this assuming that nobody wants to give up premium agricultural land for an armoured laager.

Another alternative spot is as the tank of choice in the Aksai Chin sector, and nobody but a dodo will consider shipping armour into that location close to the outbreak of hostilities. Unless you have a brigade there permanently located, it is suicidal to ship them out when tensions rise. Of course it is true that for such weather and climatic conditions, it is preferable to have a Russian design operating there.

What doesn't make sense is locating them in Kanpur, in various locations in central India, or in Hyderabad. Why we have to give them these locations and keep the infantry close to battle fronts beats me hollow. The chances of a Chinese thrust through Nepal down the Tribhuvan Highway and into the denuded Central Command (since re-positioned with fighting formations) are unlikely, to say the least.

Yeah LCA is God's gift to aviation...
In reality it was a good project that got raped by HAL and indian airforce.

{Since we are being 'fonny', may I first acknowledge the dry wit and barbed humour on display thus and respond when you have finished taking your fourteenth curtain call from the green bhakts.}

On topic, God's gift (I don't believe in God, so that's an easy one) to south Asia would be more to the point, all things considered.

I don't know why you say that HAL, an organisation that I cordially dislike, considering the bad treatment I got from some of its senior officers, was responsible for any delay on Tejas. They had nothing to do with until it passed all its technical tests, and only when it was to be produced. There they did put up a terrible delivery schedule, but that is largely because they were simply not funded sufficiently to form the several lines that they should have formed, rather than the pathetic single line that they have now.

The Air Force, ah, now, that's a different thing. I reserve comment. Only the Indian Navy is doing any good, but the way it maintains safety records is most discouraging.

Military equipment Joe.

You sell these to nations you trust, ate assured that it will not be used against you and are secure that knowledge of its hardware and working won't effect you.

Even if we walk the path of peace tomorrow, it will take generations for military equipment sale and purchase comes to play.


As for the thread. Foolishness but nt unexpected.

Pakistan needs to be more self sufficient in military equipment technology especially aviation technology since in modern times, aerial field plays a massive part. On top of it all our entire focus is right now in the controlling of a 2400km border which passes through rivers and mountains. This requires more than fences. It requires aviation technology.

We should look into less " strings attached" options and work on a more domestic product.

Actually, it's frustrating to see the directions that Pakistani military procurement, a direct reflection of Pakistani military doctrine, is taking. I speak as a neutral observer, not as an Indian implacably opposed to anything and everything Pakistan does.

 

[Guardians of the Galaxy]

Get some Helis from China instead.