Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[Penguin]

The links you have provided itself contains the answers to the servicebility issues raised by you.............NO WEAPON SYSTEM IS IMUNE TO AGING AND HUMAN ERRORS..............the AF officers and technicians were professionals who realised the defects and got them repaired............I guess that's why we have F-22A grounded.

F22 is grounded over possible oxygen system malfunctions. The same flaw that has kept the jets restricted to flights under 25,000 feet
http://defensetech.org/2011/05/06/f-22-fleet-grounded-indefinitely/

That not only risks the multimillion aircraft but also the mulitmillion traind pilot.

Clearly, grounding is bad. But grounding is always to be preferred over loosing even 1 pilot or aircraft unnecessarily. Besides,

But for U.S. forces in each of America's three current major combat operations, having the F-22s sitting on the sidelines will not make much of a difference -- other than training and patrol operations, that's where they've been since the first of the expensive planes went combat ready in December 2005.

$77 Billion F-22 Raptor Fleet Grounded Indefinitely - ABC News

The fact that even USAF experiences such problems should make more minor airforces take such issues all the more serious....

 

[houshanghai]

the new J-11B and j15, will use AESA radar and a new avionics suite.

J11B and J15 system

j11b and j15 aesa radar

j11b and j15 take off

 

[Mani2020]

so finally one of the AESA radar's pic is made public , this will further strengthen the believe of those who were expecting AESA radar in jf-17 block 2 and FC-20

Because if they can develop an AESA radar for J-11 and J-15 then why not for FC-20 and jf-17 block 2

 

[araz]

If this news is true it's a serious insult to the JF-17 Thunder. It costs overwhelmingly less than J-11 B's in terms of both procurement and operation. The Navy gets the smallest portion of Pakistan's defense budget and operates on very tight strings. It's not even thinkable that the Navy would choose to induct completely new dual engined platform while the Air Force (who has a much more generous budget) has already been integrating JF-17 squadrons and also complimenting them to be better than F-16's in "some aspects", and the JF-17 overall being able to take out "any of the current threats". I've also heard that Pakistani pilots have flown Chinese J-11 B's alongside the Chinese in Joint Exercises, perhaps even taken out other Chinese J-11 B's with their J-11B or JFT or possibly both. So I see no reason for Pakistani Navy to induct a new so called Chinese aircraft with controversial origins, performance and Russian engine. I would rather suggest PN to develop a JF-17 Naval version or if you got the money, go for Gripen all the way.

Thank you for your suggestions.If you had bothered to read the thread from the beginning you would have known the reason why the J11/J15 is being suggested for the PN. Please read the thread before you SUGGEST something else.
Araz

 

[Mani2020]

I personally asked Eagle Hannan about the purchase of J-11B and here is what he answered me , i m going to quote him

The option for J-11B does not seem to be OFF the table, I only got "we are looking into it" lately. Every naval officer confirmed the logical need of an air arm for navy and I am sure PAF has pressure with respect to responsibility towards navy. However, seems like this bird might be in Pakistan not serving with Pakistan air force but for Pakistan in Chinese colors operating from Chinese bases which China has asked for again and again. INshallah, I will try to find out anything that I could. I am personaly curious about this.

Mani, I can imagine your passion. J11 has been looked into many times already and J11B does fit the bill of a dedicated air arm for PN. Back in 2008, I did report serious evaluation of this bird. Thanks to our financial crises, we at the moment cannot run that many modernization plans for forces. A kind navy friend told that we had carrying out studies for a dedicated Naval air arm and requirement was forwarded along with Submarine requirements to government. Mir Mushi sahib rejected the matter of dedicated air arm for navy based on J11b and opted to go for submarine evaluation which was ultimately dropped by the Ghaddari. The funds meanwhile came handy neither for Navy nor Army which according to my friend was hell bent to use it. Instead they went to air force.
Imagine, had Mushi lent an ear to the studies carried out then to have a dedicated Naval air arm, this bird might have been with us today.
My notions have previously been out right negated by respected members, based on copy rights, selling to 3rd party, Operational difficulties and all that regarding J11B. I still say China was and still is in a position to get us a deal on J11b rights, if only we had money to pay.
I don't think it would have been a nightmare for maintenance and operational readiness. We are about to become serious operators of Russian engines. RD93 then soon AL31FN (WS-10A is not ready and Chinese just weeks ago ordered 121 AL31FNs. Thus making it a strong contender for FC20) will join PAF ranks. AL31 on J11s should not be a problem at all.
At the moment vibes are, this issue will be further pushed back and I don't know how PAF will keep air cover on our surface fleet with Mirages. Officers from navy have @ many times identified Indian long range aircrafts as primary threat for surface fleet. With so less time on station, Mirages will not be able to give a long endurance air cover to attacking or defending surface fleet. I have narrated this discussion with a group of navy officers on this forum about I guess 2 years back. Besides, I think our naval surveillance assets will be at high risks at all times too during any escalation. Atlantic tragedy should have been a heads up for all but seems like Pakistan Navy is least of anyone’s interest extremely unfortunately

 

[Mani2020]

Further he said...

The constraints you mentioned are the real reason, they made twin engined, long endurance and big wingspan/heavy lifter fighters for Navy. It is not a tradition but an operational reality. J11b is such category fighter. Over the water at long ranges, you need staying power to out stay the enemy's defenders or attack fighters that means very decent unrefueled ranges to keep your assets "refulers, awacs" far away from enemy's reach. You need to deliver very heavy ASHMS + carry more A2A munition for self protection. You need to have flexibility in operation roles by having a huge all seeing radar with decent ranges.

JFT will be at the same disadvantage as Mirages are at the moment with a little longer legs than the former. Legs will further shorten with the weight added to it and it is already vulnerable to BVR shots which it can not reply with the same because the weight limits will be reached prohibiting it to carry any more weapons than 2 Short range missiles. Dense air, slow acceleration and top speed over water shall make any aircraft more prone to BVR shots than on land. In other words, mirrage at the moment is totally on defensive if countered at extended ranges covering PNs surface fleets. The defending SU30MKIs or MIG29MKMs can simply out stay it, engage it in energy bleeding fights or for the heck of it engage it and then watch it fall in ocean for no fuel to return back @ extended ranges

The scenario i presented is from a PN's sea king heli pilot. Just imagine how vulnerable they are when you know that these anti submarine assets need air cover as they operate in open waters @ ranges. If Air Force has pressure in some sector and it can not provide air cover to these assets, rest assured, both air war and sea wars will be lost. May Allah never let it happen.
This lack of air arm support has actualy put the whole surface fleet on defensive.
Moreover, when you have a short leged fighter in naval role, you actualy push your stretegic assets near the battle, in high risk zones as mentioned by Munir. You see, you lost the conflict already. No matter how good the strategy is, attacking long range fighters will chase you back to your assests.
A navy with air cover that has staying power to keep a CAP on it and protect it will bag any conflict on oceans. Thats rule with no exception.

 

[houshanghai]

Mani,
you know sac j11b' airframe is a copy of flank and russa were very unhappy about it.
so I doubt if russia will allow china to import j11B with AL31F to pakistan
in fact,the current WS-10A of production is good .the current j11b's WS10A is as same as AL31F in the engine thrust and j15's WS10AH is bigger than al31F in the engine thrust .

 

[Mani2020]

Mani,
you know sac j11b' airframe is a copy of flank and russa were very unhappy about it.
so I doubt if russia will allow china to import j11B with AL31F to pakistan
in fact,the current WS-10A of production is good .the current j11b's WS10A is as same as AL31F in the engine thrust and j15's WS10AH is bigger than al31F in the engine thrust .

I don't think there will be any problem with that ,China can handle it like they did with RD-93 and now AL31F , Also China has done this in the past don't forget the F-7's were copy of Russian mig-21's but F-7's were sold to Pakistan and that too in large numbers , China is Russia's biggest arm importer and seeing the Russian economy's current situation i don't think they will be willing to loose China

Another possibility can be Pakistan can pay royalties to Russia

 

[Pfpilot]

The weakness of our navy leaves us in much the same spot as we were in all those years ago, which shows are leadership has learned nothing. A country cant fight a war on such a handicap and come out on top. The lack of communication between the airforce and the army or navy has cost us greatly in past wars, and more than that, due to the lack of dedicated air wing for the navy, there is also a lack of flexibility that limits the effectiveness of the force.
Pakistan may not have the funds to have some massive force to defend the navy, but then there needs to be a greater amount of communication and the airforce must be willing and able to provide the relevant aircraft to protect the navy. If that is not possible, aircraft should be the most important and urgent procurement of the navy before any surface ships because those ships will be utterly useless when the IAF or IN runs wild over them. The navy has been given inadequate resources from the beginning and it is a disaster in the making because once we have ceded the coast to the IN, we arent coming out on top anyways.
This is a wider problem for the Pakistani military in my opinion, we dont have a comprehensive SAM system on land, nor do our naval ships have a significant anti aircraft capability, putting the onus on the PAF to do everything...a task it will fail in simply due to the enormity of what its asked to do.

 

[DARKY]

I don't think there will be any problem with that ,China can handle it like they did with RD-93 and now AL31F , Also China has done this in the past don't forget the F-7's were copy of Russian mig-21's but F-7's were sold to Pakistan and that too in large numbers , China is Russia's biggest arm importer and seeing the Russian economy's current situation i don't think they will be willing to loose China

Another possibility can be Pakistan can pay royalties to Russia

Royalties Pakistan would pay to Russia for Al-31 engines !!............why don't you Buy the whole Plane from Russia......a Su 35BM is long way ahead of J-11Bs or J-15s......now don't come up and say russian would give the secret codes to India and stuff......if that were to happen then China would not have been the....."Biggest Arm Importer of Russia".............according to you.

 

[Mani2020]

Royalties Pakistan would pay to Russia for Al-31 engines !!............why don't you Buy the whole Plane from Russia......a Su 35BM is long way ahead of J-11Bs or J-15s......now don't come up and say russian would give the secret codes to India and stuff......if that were to happen then China would not have been the....."Biggest Arm Importer of Russia".............according to you.

Don't ask things whose answer you already know , nice attempt to start a never ending illogical game like you did in many other threads including this one , all members were on one side and you the only genius has its own logics . i don't have much energy for genius like you ,

 

[pshamim]

There are no royalties involved for AL-31 engines as that is a straight purchase just like RD-93. Royalties are paid when one country produces another's product under license.

One possibility is a new engine produced by China like WS-10, replace the AL-31 with it and sell the J-11B with new engine.
Russia cannot control sale of J-11B but can surely prohibit China from selling the AL-31 engines. We have the same issue with FC-20 purchase. There is also a possiblity that Russia will relent just like it did with RD-93s. It that happens, we may see FC-20s and possibily the J-11B much sooner in Pak inventory.

 

[Mani2020]

There are no royalties involved for AL-31 engines as that is a straight purchase just like RD-93. Royalties are paid when one country produces another's product under license.

One possibility is a new engine produced by China like WS-10, replace the AL-31 with it and sell the J-11B with new engine.
Russia cannot control sale of J-11B but can surely prohibit China from selling the AL-31 engines. We have the same issue with FC-20 purchase. There is also a possiblity that Russia will relent just like it did with RD-93s. It that happens, we may see FC-20s and possibily the J-11B much sooner in Pak inventory.

Sir believe me or not this man will come out with his own logics after logics thats why i was not answering him, he has a reputation of creating fuss on this thread , he has already succeeded in making two threads a headache for members and i bet you on that he is coming up soon with some other allien logics , even a kid knows we will/can not purchase directly from Russia a fighter specially SU-35BM due to known reasons but he jst has come up with something sooper dooper on its own

And the thing he is saying about Al-31 has been discussed 1000 times on this forum and not only Chinese members have quoted the official reports but also many important tid bids about that also RD-93 issue has been cleared over 1000 times but some people can't leave their habbits

 

[DARKY]

There are no royalties involved for AL-31 engines as that is a straight purchase just like RD-93. Royalties are paid when one country produces another's product under license.

One possibility is a new engine produced by China like WS-10, replace the AL-31 with it and sell the J-11B with new engine.
Russia cannot control sale of J-11B but can surely prohibit China from selling the AL-31 engines. We have the same issue with FC-20 purchase. There is also a possiblity that Russia will relent just like it did with RD-93s. It that happens, we may see FC-20s and possibily the J-11B much sooner in Pak inventory.

WS 10 replaces AL 31 on the Chinese birds.....I don't see any other Engine If it is there then I don't know about it........And the Chinese pilots are facing problems with those engines no matter what any Chinese member says about their progress and reliability......the continuous Imports of New batches of Al-31s say every thing.......somehow it seems strange that Similar engines are manufactured in India under license is working extremely well but even Russian exported engines to China aren't satisfactory.....now I know ''All members'' here would jump at my throat for this......buts its just a plane observation on my part.

If I am not wrong the BIG reason why PAF persisted with Russian engines even on J-10Bs can be attributed to the fact that......WS 10 is not a satisfctory and trust worthy engine......If you have inside links there you might well justify/Throw light on their decision to go for Russian Al-31s.

To many Pakistani Members my advice about going for a Russian fighter sounds like a treacherous conspiracy on my part......However it I fail to understand that they still persist with the purchase of American F-16s even after all the reason ''why they wouldn't/couldn't buy any other sophesticated American weaponry''...... strange but sounds like double standards.......Russian not only provide you with planes but help you to built your aviation Industry by producing spares and parts locally...........China and India are living examples.......they kept on aiding Chinese aviation industry even after conflicts, Mistrust and Reverse Engineering stuff and continues to aid them........even with India the arch rival as their biggest arms Importers.....they never backed off in any deal.......I see them a lot trustworthy than Americans.

Still I won't be surprised.........with those members justifying the rejection of Su 35BM in favor of F/A-18 SH if both birds are offered to PN.

P.S.
This reply was only for "pshamim".........so other members can stay away from taking the trouble of aiding me with the fuss which I create on every thread......and contribute to their headache.

 

[houshanghai]

WS 10 replaces AL 31 on the Chinese birds.....I don't see any other Engine.

Did you hear about jh7a with WS9 turbofan and k8 with ws11 turbofan ???