Pakistan may study other fighter options as US asks Pakistan to make full payment for F-16 purchase

[Imran Khan]

here goes our American dream in drain

 

[waz]

A package deal should be sorted out if Pakistan want to go for EFT or Su-35, buying just jets will be expensive and bit harder to bargain, but if a package (all 3 services equipment) deal is made like jets, ships (used or new) LRSAMS etc. It may be good to have.

Fair point, but I'd rule the SU-35 due to Indo/Russian ties. The Typhoon was evaluated by the PAF and they loved it, a few years back. It was a case of funds back then.

 

[mingle]

Fair point, but I'd rule the SU-35 due to Indo/Russian ties. The Typhoon was evaluated by the PAF and they loved it, a few years back. It was a case of funds back then.

I agree but its a bitter pill we have to swallow once all GCC switching to EF .if we add bit by bit even we replace old F16 s with these jets .More plane will be cheaper down the road .

 

[waz]

1) The price that EFT were offered to PAF was around 4-5 Billion for 70-90 aircraft.
2) There was also a plane to have Turkey build these aircraft and then export them over to Pakistan if PAF increased the order to that similar to Indian MMRCA.
3) EFT might be built in Pakistan in case the GCC countries increase their orders and Germany also increases to the original option.

The cost of Trench 3 is close to 100 million but it can be brought to the levels of 70 million if local assembly is developed. PAF can get 100 -140 aircraft for 7 - 10 billion and that too over a period of 5 years, which Pakistan can easily afford.

Thanks for that, I wish that Pakistan had gone down this route instead of the whole block 52 saga, and there would be a very capable fleet by now. But again, it came down to funds then.

I agree but its a bitter pill we have to swallow once all GCC switching to EF .if we add bit by bit even we replace old F16 s with these jets .More plane will be cheaper down the road .

True. We have to take that into account that allies operate this plane e.g. Saudi.

 

[Falcon26]

Why is this so difficult? President Obama asks Congress to give Pakistan $430 million towards purchase of F-16s. Congress says no. End of story.

Congress controls the purse strings in US, not the President.

Did congress actually vote on the matter? As I understand it's part of the US budget with deliberations still ongoing. If a vote has taken place, where's the evidence? Still yet to see an American media outlet carry such a big story.

 

[mingle]

Fair point, but I'd rule the SU-35 due to Indo/Russian ties. The Typhoon was evaluated by the PAF and they loved it, a few years back. It was a case of funds back then.

Thanks for that, I wish that Pakistan had gone down this route instead of the whole block 52 saga, and there would be a very capable fleet by now. But again, it came down to funds then.



True. We have to take that into account that allies operate this plane e.g. Saudi.

its very possible if our high command pull theior heads from hole GCC have money air cheif was in saudia we should take approach that we can procure new and used EF with theior help plus like eygpt we want some packge we can have navel ships from UK ,Italy or Germany that route we should go all china is no good either .

 

[cloud4000]

Did congress actually vote on the matter? As I understand it's part of the US budget with deliberations still ongoing. If a vote has taken place, where's the evidence? Still yet to see an American media outlet carry such a big story.

It's all part of the ongoing debate over the federal budget. I'm guessing the $430 million FMF for Pakistan is either part of the State or Defence department budgets. They will come up for a vote in Congress and President will decide to sign it or not.

There's a possibility funding could be restored before the vote is cast. Nevertheless, the funding needs to be in place by October 1st, when the new fiscal year begins, for the order to go through.

The only reason I can see that it's ignored by US media is that it's a single line item in a federal budget well over a trillion dollars. Not a priority as it is in Pakistan.

 

[Paksanity]

Did congress actually vote on the matter? As I understand it's part of the US budget with deliberations still ongoing. If a vote has taken place, where's the evidence? Still yet to see an American media outlet carry such a big story.

No, they haven't. Folks are getting ahead of themselves. If administration plays it right, they will win the vote though not as overwhelmingly as the last time. Obama administration will pull its strings for simple reason they made this commitment. Words of US president need to be honoured.

 

[mingle]

Thanks for that, I wish that Pakistan had gone down this route instead of the whole block 52 saga, and there would be a very capable fleet by now. But again, it came down to funds then.



True. We have to take that into account that allies operate this plane e.g. Saudi.

But we paying about 70 million for these 8 jets they not cheap either .

If Pakistan uses her cards properly and the Government is able to relocate funds from the budget to PAF, Pakistan can get Passenger Aircraft or Trains or Cruise Ships, Cargo Ships or some other civilian technology that is required to build CPEC.

The US would like to pay for the services they are taking. US FMS might be restricted but other non military equipment can still be procured.


1) The price that EFT were offered to PAF was around 4-5 Billion for 70-90 aircraft.
2) There was also a plane to have Turkey build these aircraft and then export them over to Pakistan if PAF increased the order to that similar to Indian MMRCA.
3) EFT might be built in Pakistan in case the GCC countries increase their orders and Germany also increases to the original option.

The cost of Trench 3 is close to 100 million but it can be brought to the levels of 70 million if local assembly is developed. PAF can get 100 -140 aircraft for 7 - 10 billion and that too over a period of 5 years, which Pakistan can easily afford.


Yes this would be very practical specially if Pakistan Navy and Army join in with there requirements.

If PN is able to fund 2 Billion for the Italian Ships along with Heli's and Pakistan Army chips in with 1-2 Billion for their requirements of Heli's and Air Defence.

A total of 6 billion in year one and 2-3 billion over the next 4-5 years PAF and PN would have developed their capabilities considerably. Grand to total over the 5 yr period would be around 15 Billion.

Add 3-5 billion for the JF-17 engines and other stuff over the same period it is something that the Europeans would not like to say no.

Even the French might come in and say to the Indians look you said Pakistan is 2 billion market only it turns out to be 20 billion you have only bought the Rafales and that too in very limited numbers.

Though I kind a find it unrealistic that PAF would go for an other platform when the J-31 and TFX are at the corner.

Here is what @Beast quoted
J-31 V2 with WS-13A Chinese domestic engine and full operation mode has just taxi

PAF shall go for this bird quickly to become the first South Asia country to operate 5th gen fighter

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/will-paf-buy-any-new-fighter-plane.428747/page-2#ixzz47LG5rrBT

Photo will arrive soon as security at Shenyang premise is very tight. The plane according to reliable witness is exactly the same as model show in Zhuhai airshow.

No more smoky engine

It will be very close to production or operation model. Customer just need to made the payment and it can be yours, just like the CH-4 or CH-5 UCAV. Ready to buy

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/will-paf-buy-any-new-fighter-plane.428747/page-2#ixzz47LGLpoQ5

If we go European route we can have both New and used Equipment for all three services 15 billion with 10 yrs finance wont be tough for Pak u will see how BAE show middle finger to American LM for them it will be coup .

 

[HAIDER]

If personally ask, US has right to cancel these subsidiaries , because everyone need money and economic condition of US doesn't allow to give lavish discounts. Soon, lots of countries has to bear this brunt, including Egypt and Israel. Time for Pakistani rich class to start paying taxes and pay the full price of any product.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Thanks for that, I wish that Pakistan had gone down this route instead of the whole block 52 saga, and there would be a very capable fleet by now. But again, it came down to funds then.

No... Funds were available. That time PAF was flying non upgraded F-16's, which indicated that the class cockpit layout of the EFT would be too advance for the pilots increasing their failure chances at the time of conversion.

When in 2002 USA wanted Pakistan's help in the War against Terrorism PAF decided to get the existing F-16's MLU and also get 72 Block 52's. This was a very sensible move because they wore going to get the same same number that PAF was looking for. Unfortunately the Earth quake saga put PAF at the back foot and the order was cut by 50 % on the Block 52's.

But we paying about 70 million for these 8 jets they not cheap either .


If we go European route we can have both New and used Equipment for all three services 15 billion with 10 yrs finance wont be tough for Pak u will see how BAE show middle finger to American LM for them it will be coup .

How did you come to the figure of 70 million for 8 jets?

The total is 700 million for 8 jets this is 97.5 million per aircraft. Hence if Pakistan takes the European route its a win situation. They would get much more than they bargained for.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Did congress actually vote on the matter? As I understand it's part of the US budget with deliberations still ongoing. If a vote has taken place, where's the evidence? Still yet to see an American media outlet carry such a big story.

No still it is being debated. The mid term elections took away the majority of Obama hence the opposition is trying to create hurdles. Obama is being played by his opponents by saying you win some we win some. The failures of Obama are actually being highlighted, like his repeated speech on closure of Gitmo. He is also being blamed on the power vacuum in Afghanistan and Iraq more over his expenditures on the bombing campaigns of Libya and the rise of ISIS.

Pakistan is just a bargaining chip for the congressmen to tell Obama to do more...

Here is what could happen Obama would tell Congress if USA does not give the Pakistani's these aircraft then they are going to stop the land supplies to US and ISAF forces. Pakistan might also stop fighting the Pakistani Taliban and the Haqani network. This would create ISIS to start a major offensive in Afghanistan. USA would have to send boots on ground. If USA fails to do such a thing Russia with the help of China would enter with support from Central Asian Republics, Iran and Pakistan creating a much bigger problem for all US assets in the region.

Congress would have no choice but to accept that Pakistan's needs are to be fulfilled even if they wish to increase the numbers and capabilities.

 

[BRAVO_]

For God's sake PAF: Get out of your obsession with F-16. Why PAF is afraid of going for new tech? I believe PAF is lagging far behind and is incompetent.

My dear our pilots and officers ... many of them grew up watching F-16 posters and video at TV which glorifying it for decodes in our national songs and shows for them it is more like a symbolic pride of PAF some think its a war tested machine against soviets and in other hostilities but we are now in 2016 where our enemies are heading toward more advance technologies and we are still dying with our damaging obsession of F-16s

 

[cloud4000]

Here is what could happen Obama would tell Congress if USA does not give the Pakistani's these aircraft then they are going to stop the land supplies to US and ISAF forces. Pakistan might also stop fighting the Pakistani Taliban and the Haqani network. This would create ISIS to start a major offensive in Afghanistan. USA would have to send boots on ground. If USA fails to do such a thing Russia with the help of China would enter with support from Central Asian Republics, Iran and Pakistan creating a much bigger problem for all US assets in the region.

The whole point about Congress frustration with Pakistan is that they are not doing enough, so your response is for Pakistan to do even less, to the point of even letting ISIS take hold in Afghanistan. For what result? So the US will return with boots on the ground and goodies for Pakistan? Strange kind of leverage this is.

Where do you think the blowback from this plan of yours is going to hit? Not US, I will tell you this much.

And while you give oxygen to ISIS, you want to invite China and Russia into this powder keg? I think they would rather stay home.

 

[fatman17]

So, it means that we have 430 mil left in USA.. is there any other way deal to utilize that money or they can just transfer 430 mil to GOP..

@Quwa @fatman17 @MastanKhan @Windjammer @Horus @Irfan Baloch @volatile @Bilal Khan 777 @ACE OF THE AIR @Bratva @Syed.Ali.Haider

its their money.

Any thoughts on a replacement platform or are we going to wait for j31?
A

no J10 and no J31 in the short to medium term.

the only other way is to pick up 10-15 F16 Block 40 from EDA and upgrade them with our money ($270m). they will be as good as new.