Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[Safriz]

Can anyone give me the exact figure (or whatever figure is available from a good source)
of the KLJ-7 MMR's peak power output?

you can find all that in jf 17 thread..

 

[Gessler]

you can find all that in jf 17 thread..

What page should I visit?

 

[Safriz]

What page should I visit?

search....

 

[Gessler]

search....

I did happen to find some claims, but there are conflicting reports.

Most claims are not backed up with any link or source, so I guess I will have to keep
searching all over the web for the info.

As an interim solution, I have put my comprehension of KLJ-7's power output at
550w (average) and 1,000-1,200w (peak) based on a few reports.

 

[ziaulislam]

I am out of picture

1) Is LCA even needed to fight JFT when MKIs are already available in superior numbers? (Although I won't complain if you say JFT is not worth fighting MKI)

2) Are you even trying to understand the situation? Just the other day, PAF had abandoned it's plans to modernize/re-equip the air force by 2025 due to lack of funds. Do you know what
this means? Isn't it completely OBVIOUS that many of PAF's previously sorted plans are in ruin?

It does not matter if JFT is block-1 or 2, it was anticipated when the economic situation was better than now, and still, every plane can be modified/scrapped as time demands it. But however
none of this changes the fact that the planned number of JFTs in only reducing, not increasing!

It was 275-300 once, then became 250, then cut further to 150 now. Who knows it may be slashed to just 100 or less in future? I don't see any betterment on that front, sorry!

And btw, look at the IAF - our acquisition plans are only increasing, unlike yours.

1) Originally there were 140 MKIs to be bought, now the number is 270+.
2) Originally the competeion was for 126 jets, now there is strong negotiation going on to add another 63 to the order.

AND note: the increase in orders is not only true for jets fighters but also helicopters, transports, AWACS, refuellers etc. etc. which are just as vitally important to a nation's war effort as much as fighters.

There's no changing the fact that we can (and will/are) afford much better, much more, than you.

And please don't even try to obtain parity, because in this hopeless game of catch-up, you
will nicely deplete whatever little financial resources you have available.



And I almost forgot...why do you keep bringing up the Block-2 of JFT?

Are you unaware of the fact that even our MKIs are due to undergo upgrade to Super-Sukhoi which
will have technologies originally developed for the PAK-FA?

original deal for MKI was 230..not 140
original deal for jf-17 was 150 WITH an other oprtion for 100 more..u can even see the 1999 accord it states 150 with an option of another 100..so we wanted a no between 150-250..
JF-17 number would be cut only if we acquire less than 150..
however, PAf doesnt know what will happen regarding it F-16 acquisition..will it receive more yes or no..?
if NO, it then might increase the jf-17 beyound 150..
PAF doesnt want to operate more than 300 fighters 1.e keeping a 1/2.5 numerical proposition with IAF THAT IT HAS KEPT SINCE 1965..in the 90s it only increased the number to 450 because of lack of any decent fighter..we only had 36 f-16s before the thunder!!!!

in future PAF would look for 100-120 high end fighters, 150 thunders..
may be 40-50 5th gen
and its well on way to meet those numbers..
if it does meet those numbers, this would make PAF one of the top 10 airforces in the world..

 

[Manticore]

via nabil-
WMD-7 has performed better than expected in all weather, foggy, day night conditions in China and Pakistan. It has replaced Chinese legacy pods and is now the standard targeting pod in PLAAF service. In PAF, it falls between the SNIPER, ATLIS, slightly inferior than former, much enhanced than latter. Should be on par with Litenning 2 at least.
requires One hardpoint for now, should be on chin pylon from second blk onwards...

klj-7 currently has 550 watt output power and is powerful enough, but plans are in place for locally produced radar to have 600 watt (yes folks, 600) watt which will give it as much power as in APG-68 v9 ! but its radar antenna size will remain same. ISAR will be introduced, other modes will remain same but range will be increased. Overall, i expect it to be as capable as V9 in general capability but less in range. MTBF is around 300 hours. AESA is being worked out in China and is going through final trials. Blk 3 will have AESA but it will be tested on a prototype in China and then in Pakistan......

The more powerful transmitter, more options available such as more range, functions, processing speed, cooling, etc, although range greatly counts on antenna size too...Also, ESA antenna can be enabled on current klj-7 too !

How much do you want from a light fighter? Its radar can guide four, not two sd-10s simultaneously, search range is 150 kms, MTBF 230 hours, 30 modes of functions, this all gives it a good cost to performance ratio, is being improved and built in house, better than the rest of our radar inventory except the APG 68 V9 but than V9 is better than most pulse dopplers in the world anyway

----
the 5-6 kw is the peak power my friend and this is not in use usually as the aircraft engine can only give a certain amount of power. APG-68v9 has a usual power of 500- 600 watts at best with current f-16 configuration, same as the KLJ-7 with current jf-17 configuration, both radars have a reserve power capacity but this does not mean they are always operated at peak power output, no radar can as per my info. Hence they both have similar ranges and working modes. At the moment, the maximum output power of KLJ-7 as per my info is somewhere around 4-5kw, similar to v9. There are reasons why Italian radar was rejected, first, it had no multi target tracking capability, a small nominal power output of just 400 watts as compared to 600 watt asked by PAF and incompatibility to fire its main weapon, the sd-10 which italians promised to rectify. They improved the radar repeatedly but it still suffered with anomalies and hence got rejected

JFT radar has publicized detection range of 105 km against 5m2 target and Su-30 even if, has RCS of 10m2, will be detected at around 200-210 kms!! I bet BARS cannot detect a 3m2 target even at 150 kms and JFT is much less than 3m2 so MKI will have a hard time detecting the JFT at advertised range. Reality is, it will most likely be the other way around. yes the JFT will see the MKI first!

----
a-5 retired, next in line are early mirages (non rose models), f-7s (only p, not pg), this should be completed as new batches of jft are inducted, within next 5 -7 years at best. Grifo-S is not exactly same as old Grifo-S 7 and I give u the reason why. After fiar presented s-7 to paf, it seem impressive as it had high power and excellent anti jamming, decent range, robust architecture but it lacked in multiple engagements and track range, it also had inherited flaw of unable to communicate with indigenous, chinese weapons. What was presented by fiar as the Grifo-2000/16 was any day, a better option as it had more range, better features. this was discussed with fiar and they came up with and unified version having different antenna, range, processors, features in a customized variant known today as Grifo-S, this can also be observed in the brochure. It was defeated by a more capable radar in all dimensions that is known as klj-7......

---



F-7= Grifo-7=200-250 watt

f-16 blk 15= 300-350 watt

Rose Mirage= Grifo M3= 400-450 watt

Grifo-S (JFT earlier) =500-560 watt

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/68207-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-4-a-74.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters-3.html#post1900693

Pakistan
Mirage III (Grifo-M)
F-7 Airguard (Grifo 7)
Peak Power
P2801 100kW
http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/stat/statgrifo.htm



The range for the present Chinese radar is very likely to be more than 100 kms; considering that the PAF chief was comparing with PAF F-16s. The PAF F-16s underwent OCU which increased their range and made it close to MLU (see this)

"The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package."

Consider this bit of information, and also that the APG-66 later modification values are against 1m^2 targets which will be further increased against a significantly greater RCS for the MKI.

Now consider statements made by the PAF Chief about the KLJ-7: is *much better* than their APGs (and these are the upgraded OCU APGs).

Secondly if you visit SOC's old post on FC-1 and see the exchange of comments, one poster pointed out that KLJ-7 beat the Grifo- S and PAF did not lowered their requirements (this includes a link that PAF did not lower it's requirement, and on that is by none other than Richard Fischer ). SOC in fact commented that it is a very potent radar looking at some mentioned features.

Clearly, the KLJ-7 was chosen over this "very potent radar" and clearly the PAF Chief mentions that the KLJ-7 is "much better" than the present APGs.


One would also want to ask what is the detection range by JET modulation when intakes are hidden and treated with RAM. Why does one poster think it is more important and potent than detection by using returns from the airframe when clearly returns from airframe of a non-stealthy aircraft will be in abundance.

Another assertion made is that the MKI has phased array and JF-17 has Pulse doppler and MKI can avoid JF-17 lock by using doppler notch where as MKI will have no problems with locking on as it's radar is not PD.

This is what is common knowledge at various forums:
1)Doppler notch has been known since time ancient and tactics against Doppler notch were known by USAF even back in Vietnam Era.
2) According to one of the viper pilots at the F-16 forum, they have way more modes on their radars and just by switching to different mode of detection and maneuvering your aircraft so that there is no 90 degrees between both aircrafts this dopler notch could be taken care of.
3)Another aviator said "no modern AI radar is worth it's salt if it can't resist doppler notch"

All of the above should be on F-16 forums if you search "doppler notch"

Grande Strategy


I dont give a crap if members dont agree with these values --- they can have mutual brain masturbation sessions on other fora

This is a thread regarding paf and its not about iaf--- such further posts will be regarded as offtopic trolling and will be rewarded with a pink saree

 

[Gessler]

@ANTIBODY

What KLJ-7 currently needs is a power upgrade. Compare the burnthrough performance
of KLJ-7 with that of N011M BARS and you will be surprised.

BARS power output is like 4,500-5,000 watts. Even an ESA antenna cannot save
KLJ-7 from being overpowered by BARS' jamming.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Everybody talking about j-10B as if it was some game changing machine?Whats so special about it?
Current j-10 was 'crushed' by j-11 in exercises acc to chinese members themselves,myanmar chose mig-29 over j-10 despite economic benefit offers.Paf hasn't chosen it,its engine is russian,chinese ws-10 is maintainence nightmare.So either they buy fc-20 with unreliable engine or russia holds PAF fleet hostage with al-31 engine delivery and maintainence assuming they agree to supply those.

If i were PAF i go for more f-16 with amraams or j-11B.
Or simply take a gamble and save money for j-31.
I don't see mere 36 j-10B making much difference.The only major upgrade it seems to offer over j-10A is an AESA radar[china's first one on a combat fighter] that has suspect performance.

 

[Gessler]

Pakistan
Mirage III (Grifo-M)
F-7 Airguard (Grifo 7)
Peak Power
P2801 100kW
Grifo Radar series

100 kilowatts ????

F-22 Raptor's AN/APG-77 AESA is only around 12 kilowatts (that's 12,000watts).

I think they mean 100 watts or 1,000watts.

 

[Su-11]

Dont believe some unknown site. here is the official brochure-

Grifo Family

80 watts, not 100 watts.

 

[Gessler]

Dont believe some unknown site. here is the official brochure-

Grifo Family

80 watts, not 100 watts.

Yep, it says Grifo-7PG is an 80-watt radar.

Still it's sad some websites don't know the difference between 100 watts and 100 KILOWATTS (which equals 1,00,000 watts)

 

[Major Sam]

Yep, it says Grifo-7PG is an 80-watt radar.

Still it's sad some websites don't know the difference between 100 watts and 100 KILOWATTS (which equals 10,000 watts)

100 KW means , 100,000 Watts

 

[shanixee]

Everybody talking about j-10B as if it was some game changing machine?Whats so special about it?
Current j-10 was 'crushed' by j-11 in exercises acc to chinese members themselves,myanmar chose mig-29 over j-10 despite economic benefit offers.Paf hasn't chosen it,its engine is russian,chinese ws-10 is maintainence nightmare.So either they buy fc-20 with unreliable engine or russia holds PAF fleet hostage with al-31 engine delivery and maintainence assuming they agree to supply those.

If i were PAF i go for more f-16 with amraams or j-11B.
Or simply take a gamble and save money for j-31.
I don't see mere 36 j-10B making much difference.The only major upgrade it seems to offer over j-10A is an AESA radar[china's first one on a combat fighter] that has suspect performance.

Off course it is not a game changer but its definitely a game maker...

 

[Gessler]

100 KW means , 100,000 Watts

yep, sorry. post edited.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Off course it is not a game changer but its definitely a game maker...

What exactly is 'game maker'?