Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[Gessler]

You do realize that you don't have to put ^^^^ everytime?

That's what the 'Reply with Quote' button is for.

I know. I mostly use the RWQ button but when I feel lazy I use the ^^^ gesture.

ON topic,

PAF is just doing fine. As economy catches up so will PAF. Think this way.....PAF doesn't have funding but it has all it needs from China. Which means, if PAF gets funding, it can order j-10s or j-31s tomorrow. which is unlike IAF where DESPITE having the funding, they still haven't signed the MMRCA, which we have been hype-fully hearing for the past 4 years.

1 thing I don't understand. Why are you guys rushing to conclusions without assessing the
situation?? Do you suppose PAF buying jets off-the-shelf and IAF's detailed contracts for licensed
production, tech absorption by public-private companies can be dealt with in same period
of time?

IAF had evaluated some 100s of parameters on 6 different jet fighters and zeroed in on the Rafale,
this competition held the entire world by it's tie for years. Can PAF do all that in lesser time?

MMRCA will be signed after detailed negotiation is completed. The funds are there. IAF wants those
jets. France wants to sell as quickly as possible. What is left is deciding who get's what - how much
work share HAL takes in the licensed production, and how much goes to private companies.

Besides, IAF is not desperate for Rafales, we have the MKIs floating in massive numbers, and
upgrades are underway. Comparing PAF's procurement with that of IAF in these matters is worse
than comparing PAF's procurement saga to Royal Air Force Typhoon saga. (As Windjammer did on Page 1).

 

[Storm Force]

Guys

JF17 is a big success for PAF cost efective and nice simple solution to keeping up nos around 350 fighters when mirages RETIRE.

but DONT GET CONFUSED by the THREAT with a paitriotic attitude

SU30MKI &
Massively UPGRADED MIRAGE2000-5 with rc400 radar mica BVRS is far more lethal and matured platform than the JF17 today.

Even the twin engined MIG29K of the NAVY IS FAR superior platform in terms of load & kinmetic flight power.

I would take half of IAF fighter flight to be superior overall to any JF17 today or in the near future.
Thats 300 su30mki/mirage2000/mig29k....


THE ONLY fighter that will cause a STIR in indian air force is the FORMIDABLE F16

THIS IS WHY i keep suggesting IF i was running PAF by hook or crook crawling or begging I WOULD get MORE F16swithout USA military hardware/grantaid PAF will fall TOO FAR BEHIND a very powerful adversary with massive financial advantage that they hold today.

 

[Su-11]

F-7P/PG are not a true BVR fighter as they have to sneak up real close
to an enemy plane in order to attack them, with or without AWACS coverage. And under all
circumstances, they will not only be detected but also fired upon much before they can get close enough
to attack, simply because IAF fighters' radars can not only see F-7P/PG earlier, they can also
attack F-7 from BVR range and scoot, and F-7 won't be able to return the favour.

@gessler
F-7PG are not BVR fighters. Heck even the newest and the most advanced F-7BGI are not BVR capable for the simple reason that the chinese and the Russian MiG-21 development is very different.

Now a little history..

Back when the Soviets and Chinese were buddies, the Soviets did huge technology transfers to the Chinese, some of which are the A-Bomb, H-bomb, artillery etc etc.. and in them they transferrred MiG-15, 19, and the 21. However while they were transferring the 21, the chinese' mask came off and the soviets stopped the transfer of technology of MiG-21 mid way. What the soviets transferred were the blue prints of the first 21 variant, the MiG-21 F-13. Please pay close attention to the size of the radar nose cone.

Now here is the picture of the newest and the latest F-7 variant, the F-7BGI, more advanced than the decade old F-7PG.

Notice anything similar? The chinese have reverse engineered its wing, put in other numerous advancements but failed to increase the size of its radar nose cone for over 50 years!!! (except for a few failed prototypes with lateral intakes) Because they were counting on J-8s and more recently J-10s to do their BVR work.

The Russians however to counter the F-4 phantoms radar, began increasing the size of their MiG-21s nose cone in further development.

The last and the greatest MiG-21 the MiG-21Bis radar size can be seen here-

MiG-21-93 is the Russian name for the Bison.
F-7PGs radar - *************** . pk/dbtgallery.php?do=gallery_image&id=524&gal=gallery&type=full

Further more, the Bisons radar(kopyo-m) is a massive 1000 watt radar with an enormous radar nose cone size having a range of 75km for a 5m2 target. A true BVR radar. In comparison, Janes reports the JF-17's radar has a range of 75km for 3m2 target(85km for 5m2 target). While the Grifo-7PG radar on the F-7PG is a small nose cone radar, with a power of only 80 watts!!(can you believe it? less than a light bulb!), with a 35km range detection for 5m2 target. F-7PGs and MiG-21 Bisons are not even comparable when it comes to BVR combat, which is the reason why the F-7PGs have never been spotted once with a BVR missile, because they cannot carry them in the first place.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Say what you will and make as many excuses as you want.

Fact is, what we had planned in mid-2000's was substantial for PAF future needs.
Then came the earthquake, then came the hits to our economy, then came floods, then came rampant militancy and then came a stagnant economy along with political instability.

All while our adversaries bulked up their economy and naturally they have more money to spend.

No matter how you try to spin it, we lost a good 5-6 years of adequate economic activity and it will have it's toll on air force's capability.

 

[Storm Force]

Jungibaaz.

PAKISTAN has struggled financially since independance. In the past USA propped up pakistan . TODAY that USA support is declining especially vis a vis INDIA.

INCREASED MILITANCY has effected your standing globally for sure. AND your lack of real democratic gov,t

TOO MUCH military control is not a receipe for LONG TERM success

 

[Jungibaaz]

Guess we'll have to be ready for that then!

Don't take it too seriously, I just have a very strong gut feeling you will go to war with China in the future, perhaps with Pakistan's involvement.

Btw, I'm posting in PDF after a long time, how come you have NK flags?

After elections a few people changed their flags to NK.
Me? I'm still very disappointed at Pakistan and it's people, better loyalty to Kim Jong then Ameer-ul-momineen ganja Sharif.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/253237-pakistanis-north-korea-p-i-n-k.html

p.s. it's best not to talk of other forums, you might get an infraction.

Jungibaaz.

PAKISTAN has struggled financially since independance. In the past USA propped up pakistan . TODAY that USA support is declining especially vis a vis INDIA.

INCREASED MILITANCY has effected your standing globally for sure. AND your lack of real democratic gov,t

TOO MUCH military control is not a receipe for LONG TERM success

Too much military control rhetoric is no longer relevant to Pakistan today and after Mushy left.
PA has been relatively absent during a period which can be regarded as the worst in our history and a time where many Pakistan would welcome PA with open arms.

There are a whole host of reasons why we are in this situation and many people are to blame, and to blame PA alone and not give them credit where it's due is in my opinion, very unfair.

 

[Gessler]

@gessler
F-7PG are not BVR fighters. Heck even the newest and the most advanced F-7BGI are not BVR capable for the simple reason that the chinese and the Russian MiG-21 development is very different.

Now a little history..

Back when the Soviets and Chinese were buddies, the Soviets did huge technology transfers to the Chinese, some of which are the A-Bomb, H-bomb, artillery etc etc.. and in them they transferrred MiG-15, 19, and the 21. However while they were transferring the 21, the chinese' mask came off and the soviets stopped the transfer of technology of MiG-21 mid way. What the soviets transferred were the blue prints of the first 21 variant, the MiG-21 F-13. Please pay close attention to the size of the radar nose cone.

Now here is the picture of the newest and the latest F-7 variant, the F-7BGI, more advanced than the decade old F-7PG.

Notice anything similar? The chinese have reverse engineered its wing, put in other numerous advancements but failed to increase the size of its radar nose cone for over 50 years!!! (except for a few failed prototypes with lateral intakes) Because they were counting on J-8s and more recently J-10s to do their BVR work.

The Russians however to counter the F-4 phantoms radar, began increasing the size of their MiG-21s nose cone in further development.

The last and the greatest MiG-21 the MiG-21Bis radar size can be seen here-

MiG-21-93 is the Russian name for the Bison.
F-7PGs radar - *************** . pk/dbtgallery.php?do=gallery_image&id=524&gal=gallery&type=full

Further more, the Bisons radar(kopyo-m) is a massive 1000 watt radar with an enormous radar nose cone size having a range of 75km for a 5m2 target. A true BVR radar. In comparison, Janes reports the JF-17's radar has a range of 75km for 3m2 target(85km for 5m2 target). While the Grifo-m radar on the F-7PG is a small nose cone radar, with a power of only 80 watts!!(can you believe it? less than a light bulb!), with a 35km range detection for 5m2 target. F-7PGs and MiG-21 Bisons are not even comparable when it comes to BVR combat, which is the reason why the F-7PGs have never been spotted once with a BVR missile, because they cannot carry them in the first place.

Well what's the peak power output of JF-17's radar?

 

[Gessler]

Don't take it too seriously, I just have a very strong gut feeling you will go to war with China in the future, perhaps with Pakistan's involvement.



After elections a few people changed their flags to NK.
Me? I'm still very disappointed at Pakistan and it's people, better loyalty to Kim Jong then Ameer-ul-momineen ganja Sharif.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/253237-pakistanis-north-korea-p-i-n-k.html

p.s. it's best not to talk of other forums, you might get an infraction.



Too much military control rhetoric is no longer relevant to Pakistan today and after Mushy left.
PA has been relatively absent during a period which can be regarded as the worst in our history and a time where many Pakistan would welcome PA with open arms.

There are a whole host of reasons why we are in this situation and many people are to blame, and to blame PA alone and not give them credit where it's due is in my opinion, very unfair.

Thanks for info. Can you tell me where I should apply for a username change in PDF?

I want an uppercase G in my username.

 

[Windjammer]

A little enlightenment for anyone doubting the capabilities of F-7PGs, the type in service with the PAF.

These aircraft were initially shipped to Pakistan on priority basis during the 2002 stand off with India......it's not rocket science to understand that at the period, PAF already had fighters capable of firing guns and sidewinders.
The F-7PGs were acquired for more capability than just shooting off PL-8 type short range weapons.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Thanks for info. Can you tell me where I should apply for a username change in PDF?

I want an uppercase G in my username.

I've no idea.
I do recall seeing a thread a long while back, but I don't know where it is.

You might need to contact Webby or Asim directly

 

[SQ8]

A lot of people will be banned from the thread unless they stop self gloating through wikipedia.

 

[Windjammer]

Thanks for info. Can you tell me where I should apply for a username change in PDF?

I want an uppercase G in my username.

@gessler

Send a PM to the PDF administration , they will rectify it for you.

 

[Gessler]

@Oscar
Maybe you will be able to tell me Oscar, where I should apply for a username change?

 

[Su-11]

Well what's the peak power output of JF-17's radar?

@gessler No idea.. But most probably 1000 or 1500 watts, or some number inbetween.

A little enlightenment for anyone doubting the capabilities of F-7PGs, the type in service with the PAF.

These aircraft were initially shipped to Pakistan on priority basis during the 2002 stand off with India......it's not rocket science to understand that at the period, PAF already had fighters capable of firing guns and sidewinders.
The F-7PGs were acquired for more capability than just shooting off PL-8 type short range weapons.

Back in 2002 there weren't any MKIs. The only true BVR fighter in the IAF arsenal were the MiG-29s,. The Mirage's "BVR" weapon only had a max range of only about 35kms, and the Bison were still under upgradation and didnt exist. So at that time, more WVR fighters is certainly more preferable than no fighters at all.

 

[Gessler]

Can anyone give me the exact figure (or whatever figure is available from a good source)
of the KLJ-7 MMR's peak power output?