What's new

Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

even though the economic situation is weak @ the moment, nonetheless
PAF will have get the j-10s, PAF just cant afford to reduce the size of fleet or downsizing, keeping in mind with the massive advancement of the IAF, which has given them both the qualitative as well as quantitative edge, thus nullifying this leaner meaner force option as being propagated by some posters here, this is not the era of man behind the machines anymore, one should keep this in mind before propagating a 12 to 15 Squadrons strength, which is nothing less then a suicidal suggestion . PAF will have to increase its fleet size & induct newer jets, it has to maintain @ least a 27 to 28 Squadrons strength period .
 
.
:omghaha: You people seriously need to get rid of this price tag mentality. BTW PAF main focus is JFT at the moment.


:no: Actually Russia knows india is unable to copy/produce the stuff they sale to them which makes them good customer since they will be dependent. China is smart and since they know they can create the similar technology at home why should they give away the money ;) You can't really stop technology from being copied by others just look around you this is whats happening all over the world. If you people are not doing it then either you are stupid or you simply don't have the abilites to do it.


In international politics there are no permanent friends and relationships depend upon interests. If India will make deals by skipping the russians then obviously they will not be happy. At the end of the day they need to sell their stuff. If you are not going to buy from them then they will go to some one else :) In past they approved the sale of RD93 egines to pakistan regardless of the indian pressure. You may get more surprises now that ice is melting between two counteries.
:smokin:

This is really funny! PAF will get for free RD 93 engines from Russia!
 
.
This is really funny! PAF will get for free RD 93 engines from Russia!

HAL negotiated successfully to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL’s work share will include critical software including the mission computer, navigation systems, most of the cockpit displays, the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems and modifying Sukhoi’s prototype into fighter as per the requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF).[28]

Russian expertise in titanium structures will be complemented by India’s experience in composites like in the fuselage. A total of 500 aircraft are planned with option for further aircraft. Russian Air Force will have 200 single seated and 50 twin-seated PAK FAs while Indian Air Force will get 166 single seated and 48 twin-seated FGFAs.[29][30] At this stage, the Sukhoi holding is expected to carry out 80% of the work involved. Under the project terms, single-seat fighters will be assembled in Russia, while Hindustan Aeronautics will assemble two-seaters.[31]

According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-37. Speaking to Flight magazine, United Aircraft chief Mikhail Pogosyan said India is giving engineering inputs covering latest airframe design, Hi-Tech software development and other systems

THIS IS THE REASON WHY THE RELATIONSHIP IS SYMBIOTIC AND FRIENDLY NOT LIKE A BEGGAR 2 DONOR RELATIONSHIP OF A COUNTRY AND USA NOT A THOUSAND MILES FROM WHERE I WRITE.
 
.
Comparing the LCA to the JF-17 has been done to death. Either way it is irrelevant- the Thunder is going to be the mainstay/backbone of the PAF, the LCA is not going to be the mainstay/backbone of the IAF. Whilst the IAF can afford delays (within reason) to the LCA, the PAF cannot afford such delays to the Thunder or later blocks. In the next decade the IAF is certain to induct at least 3 different types of new fighters (LCA, FGFA, Rafale),the PAF, right now, is only going to be inducting 1 (JF-17).


It is a common diversionary tactic to just resort to LCA-bashing but as I've just proved it equates to nothing.

Leave aside the LCA Story, IAF can offer delays in Rafale deal also since Pakistan has not inducted J-10B. I don't believe that J-10B will be inducted by 2014. I want to know whether first prototype of J-10B which is said to be or which is going to be built according to Pakistan requirements has flown?

My guess is that Pakistan might try to go for F-16 Fighters but again we cannot predict how US will Change after with drawl in Afghanistan.
 
.
Strength of 3 Squadrons at-least to pose a credible threat to the PLAF.

2 squadrons of MKIs are already at NE front, another 2 squadrons are to follow with more
MKIs. Atleast 1 squadron of Rafales will be deployed additionally in the initial procurement phase.

even though the economic situation is weak @ the moment, nonetheless
PAF will have get the j-10s,
PAF just cant afford to reduce the size of fleet or downsizing, keeping in mind with the massive advancement of the IAF, which has given them both the qualitative as well as quantitative edge, thus nullifying this leaner meaner force option as being propagated by some posters here, this is not the era of man behind the machines anymore, one should keep this in mind before propagating a 12 to 15 Squadrons strength, which is nothing less then a suicidal suggestion . PAF will have to increase its fleet size & induct newer jets, it has to maintain @ least a 27 to 28 Squadrons strength period .

Yep that's what I was saying since my 1st post on this thread.

FC-20 procurement is becoming more of a mandatory approach if to secure Pak's own airspace,
rather than the "choice" it was a few years back. PAF will have to procure FC-20, even at the
cost of a few little compromises.
 
.
I am sure that PAF is not looking in to J-10B now. There main focus will be the JF-17 Block-IIs along with development of 5th Generation with China....

Nishan, I hope you understand that a single fighter (JFT Block-2) cannot be the solution for
all problems. You need FC-20 just as desperately you need AWACS.
 
.
I find it interesting the PAF is opting for Il 76/78 over US alternatives.

What US alternative? The C-130s? They are not an alternative for Il-76/78 are they?

PAF will have to procure more Il-76/78s (second-hand ones ofcourse) to support the troop movement
and logistics. I'm I right, the Boeing 737s operated by PAF (taken from old PIA stocks) cannot carry
cargo as they are passenger-focused planes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
.
I am out of picture:lol:

In the context of the argument.....yes. :)
1) Is LCA even needed to fight JFT when MKIs are already available in superior numbers? (Although I won't complain if you say JFT is not worth fighting MKI:lol:)

And you assume that all your battles will be fought by the MKI, :cheesy: since we certainly don't think that JFT, albeit to be the backbone for PAF, is the only Pakistan defender. (As for the sarcasm, wonder why a certain W/C W*********, an SU-30 Commander, once disclosed that if he ever goes into battle, he would prefer his old stead, the Mirage 2k) ;)
2) Are you even trying to understand the situation? Just the other day, PAF had abandoned it's plans to modernize/re-equip the air force by 2025 due to lack of funds. Do you know what
this means? Isn't it completely OBVIOUS that many of PAF's previously sorted plans are in ruin?
Don't let that get your tail up, there were even rumors that Rafael deal may get cancelled, a decade earlier Indians were convinced that PAF' F-16 issue is now dead and buried but look a decade later, PAF is not just recieving the withheld F-16s with much superior capability but to your dismay, it has inducted state of the art Block-52s.
It does not matter if JFT is block-1 or 2, it was anticipated when the economic situation was better than now, and still, every plane can be modified/scrapped as time demands it. But however
none of this changes the fact that the planned number of JFTs in only reducing, not increasing!

It was 275-300 once, then became 250, then cut further to 150 now. Who knows it may be slashed to just 100 or less in future? I don't see any betterment on that front, sorry!

And btw, look at the IAF - our acquisition plans are only increasing, unlike yours.

1) Originally there were 140 MKIs to be bought, now the number is 270+.
2) Originally the competeion was for 126 jets, now there is strong negotiation going on to add another 63 to the order.

AND note: the increase in orders is not only true for jets fighters but also helicopters, transports, AWACS, refuellers etc. etc. which are just as vitally important to a nation's war effort as much as fighters.

There's no changing the fact that we can (and will/are) afford much better, much more, than you.

And please don't even try to obtain parity, because in this hopeless game of catch-up, you
will nicely deplete whatever little financial resources you have available
.

You can indulge in all your chest thumping for your hearts content but don't fancy yourself as an expert in some defence matters, we use to hear talk of IAF having a requirement of some 44 squadrons, you still seem a long way off your target, just because IAF feels the need to increase it's strength, PAF doesn't need to follow suit, it has it's own doctrine, goals and requirements, the parity in numbers has always been in a ratio of some 4:1.
And I almost forgot...why do you keep bringing up the Block-2 of JFT?

Are you unaware of the fact that even our MKIs are due to undergo upgrade to Super-Sukhoi which
will have technologies originally developed for the PAK-FA?

Yea you had to get that off your chest as well......but since you are in love with your self, the reason i mentioned the JFT Block-2 is that if your wishful thinking was anywhere near the truth, why and how would PAF can invest for further technology and capability and as you needed to disclose the MKI upgrade, perhaps you are unaware that all PAF's old F-16s are also being brought up to Block-52 standard.
 
.
Nishan, I hope you understand that a single fighter (JFT Block-2) cannot be the solution for
all problems. You need FC-20 just as desperately you need AWACS.

Although you are bit right. But need to do JV with EU on Radars, IR and Sonar like sensors as the technology will be used from Air defence radars, AWACs, fighter planes, Ships and weapons too..
 
.
I always suspectes jf17 would grow to 150 and take à full decade to blk3 maturity.

Paf wil need USA grant aid in future to get more F16 blk 52.

Financially You have no other choice.

Euro canards are rip off prices and chinesse lack the hi end engine and radar Tech of USA and euro canards
 
.
In the context of the argument.....yes. :)

You, sir, are broadly mistaken.

And you assume that all your battles will be fought by the MKI, :cheesy: since we certainly don't think that JFT, albeit to be the backbone for PAF, is the only Pakistan defender.

I don't assume that, but I only assume about what the confirmed figures are. And I only used
the cream of each air force's fighters. (The IAF Bisons, with their BVR missiles, EL/M-8222 jammers, reduced
RCS, and datalink ability will have no problem dealing with F-7P/PG or the Mirage upgrade. Remember
we have upgraded MiG-29s now. They're capabilities are also vastly enhanced than before and then
the Mirage-2ks are also there, just to add further muscle when needed.

Do you know of some of latest IAF tactics? There is a rough analysis of how MiG-21s can be used as the
"clients" of MKI's massive radar coverage with the N-011M BARS PESA. PAF jets in the theater will be
focusing on the MKI while the smaller MiG-21s (with their lesser RCS and low profile) would sneak up to
the PAF jets and fire off a BVR missiles from long range and slip away. The MKI can still remain outside
the range of PAF jet's missiles. However this is only a rough depiction about how IAF plans to use
MKI's huge radar potential, even without AWACS coverage at a given area (although Phalcon will have
no problem scanning deep into Pak territory while staying well within Indian airspace.

About the question you posted, no I don't consider JFT as Pak's only defender, but in the era
of BVR warfare, only the JFT and F-16 (who'se numbers I've also included as "65") can put
up a fight.

As @Oscar explained above, F-7P/PG are not a true BVR fighter as they have to sneak up real close
to an enemy plane in order to attack them, with or without AWACS coverage. And under all
circumstances, they will not only be detected but also fired upon much before they can get close enough
to attack, simply because IAF fighters' radars can not only see F-7P/PG earlier, they can also
attack F-7 from BVR range and scoot, and F-7 won't be able to return the favour.

And secondly, I only talk in substance about confirmed figures/purchases. See I only mentioned Rafale
when I was talking about future acquisitions. I never included Rafale in the numbers. Neither did
I include FC-20.

(As for the sarcasm, wonder why a certain W/C W*********, an SU-30 Commander, once disclosed that if he ever goes into battle, he would prefer his old stead, the Mirage 2k) ;)

Maybe he had a dispute with the 2nd pilot, and wanted to go back to his Mirage where he could fly it
solo. There are people in the world who say the old F-4 Phantom is better than F-22 Raptor of today.
What's your point?

Don't let that get your tail up, there were even rumors that Rafael deal may get cancelled, a decade earlier Indians were convinced that PAF' F-16 issue is now dead and buried but look a decade later, PAF is not just recieving the withheld F-16s with much superior capability but to your dismay, it has inducted state of the art Block-52s.
@Windjammer, oh please. Get a hold on yourself. Whenever did I base my arguments on rumors?

The aspect that JF-17 numbers were slashed by almost 50% is not a RUMOR, it's the TRUTH.
It's a pity you are too blind to notice that!

The aspect that MKI numbers went up from 140 to 270+ is not a RUMOR either, it's the TRUTH.

The aspect that IAF procurements are heading NORTH while PAF is heading SOUTH is not a RUMOR
either, it's the damn-obvious TRUTH.

There are only a handful of Block-52s and you can be sure they cannot completely turn the tide
in war. They still lack an Electronically Scanned Array (ESA)-type radar. And furthermore, don't forget
there ARE numerous restrictions that US exercises on it's products, especially when they happen
to be bought with money given by themselves in "aid packages" for WOT.

And if you think those handful of F-16s are your lifeline, think again.:lol: IAF has closely evaluated
the Block-52 from Singapore Air Force and the F-16IN in MMRCA and there's very little we don't
know about this plane or it's capabilities. MKIs have thoroughly practiced with Singapore AF
counterparts which sport many of the same electronic equipment on PAF planes.

This won't hold true for PAF "checking out" PLAAF flankers because no PLAAF flanker yet sports
1) an operational PESA radar with the same range and same capabilities as MKI
2) a Thrust-vectored engine. IAF MKIs' dogfighting/maneuvering/post-stall abilities are
totally different from the PLAAF flankers your guys checked out.

You can indulge in all your chest thumping for your hearts content but don't fancy yourself as an expert in some defence matters, we use to hear talk of IAF having a requirement of some 44 squadrons, you still seem a long way off your target,

Now I guess you can sleep fitfully thinking about how IAF will take more more years to reach it's
target.

The numbers and capabilities of our aircraft is still far ahead of you and this gap is only set to
increase.

just because IAF feels the need to increase it's strength, PAF doesn't need to follow suit, it has it's own doctrine, goals and requirements, the parity in numbers has always been in a ratio of some 4:1.

Now it looks like you think numbers are everything. Wrong again.

It's going to be 4 to 1 of superior quality + superiority capability fighters, not 4:1 of lesser quality
planes with lesser equipment/capability as was the case with most previous engagements.

Yea you had to get that off your chest as well......but since you are in love with your self, the reason i mentioned the JFT Block-2 is that if your wishful thinking was anywhere near the truth, why and how would PAF can invest for further technology and capability and as you needed to disclose the MKI upgrade, perhaps you are unaware that all PAF's old F-16s are also being brought up to Block-52 standard.

JFT block-2 won't appear overnight. Neither can all f-16s be upgraded to blk-52 overnight.
They will take time, and by then Super-MKI will also be showing it's pointy nose to you
fellows. Simple timing.

Keep in mind that even if all of your F-16s come to Block-52+ standard, they won't achieve
parity with the present-level MKI because of the ESA radar and Thrust-Vectoring. The Super-MKI
is simply beyond reach for any non-AESA F-16.

About the misc, remember that you will always be needing more than 1 JF-17/F-16 to
carry as much ordnance as a single MKI, hence, MKI can bomb more targets, do more damage
while flying a lesser number of sorties as when compared to PAF's 4th generation fleet.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
I always suspectes jf17 would grow to 150 and take à full decade to blk3 maturity.

Paf wil need USA grant aid in future to get more F16 blk 52.

Financially You have no other choice.

Euro canards are rip off prices and chinesse lack the hi end engine and radar Tech of USA and euro canards

And @Windjammer you seem to have also forgotten than betting too much on F-16 is not
good for health either. F-16's upkeep is very costly, you could sustain it because of US grants
but if US stops money-lending (an inevitability, sooner or later), maintaining them will be a
nightmare for your economy.

More F-16s upgraded to Block-52+ = more sophisticated equipment = more cost.

It is 100% clear that you ARE NOT trying to assess the situation, but simply posting whatever
comes to your mind because you fell like winning this little debate we're having, without making
any substantial points.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
And @Windjammer you seem to have also forgotten than betting too much on F-16 is not
good for health either. F-16's upkeep is very costly, you could sustain it because of US grants
but if US stops money-lending (an inevitability, sooner or later), maintaining them will be a
nightmare for your economy.

More F-16s upgraded to Block-52+ = more sophisticated equipment = more cost.

It is 100% clear that you ARE NOT trying to assess the situation, but simply posting whatever
comes to your mind because you fell like winning this little debate we're having, without making
any substantial points.

@gessler


If it wasn't on PDF, where else the likes of you would be gloating their banter, suggest you read your posts, you are not only desperate to show PAF in poor light but can't contain yourself blabbering on about IAF this and that......suggest when you are done with your chest thumping, pay attention to the title of the thread.......doesn't it debunk your thoughts outright. :lol:
More than any one it's your own health that's effected since you are going to extreme measures to prove your worth or may be you are un employed and have all the time at your hand. :D
Just a little reminder that Pakistan was under sanctions for well over a decade and those F-16s never missed a sortie so don't put your brain in an over drive. !!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Pakistan needs J-10s within the next 10 years or else its better to just forget about keeping an Air Force.
 
.
@gessler


If it wasn't on PDF, where else the likes of you would be gloating their banter, suggest you read your posts, you are not only desperate to show PAF in poor light but can't contain yourself blabbering on about IAF this and that......suggest when you are done with your chest thumping, pay attention to the title of the thread.......doesn't it debunk your thoughts outright. :lol:
More than any one it's your own health that's effected since you are going to extreme measures to prove your worth or may be you are un employed and have all the time at your hand. :D
Just a little reminder that Pakistan was under sanctions for well over a decade and those F-16s never missed a sortie so don't put your brain in an over drive. !!!

I don't look at the title of thread, I look at the contents of the thread.

All the title says is "Pak may speed AF procurements despite economy". But there is no evidence of
any "speed up" or "increase" in PAF's procurements if you look closely at the contents of the OP.

JF-17 numbers are going down, progress on FC-20 is yet to begin, and what exact procurement
has been speeded up I don't know. Please contribute to my knowledge by telling me.

First of all, you need to stop getting carried away by media reports. Pay attention instead, to the
actual procurement process that your Air Force is taking.

As of me, I am yet a minor and all I do is go to college, do my homework (which I've completed 3 hrs ago)
and go to hang out with friends. When I'm free, I get down to PDF or IDF to see the latest defense updates
and share my knowledge or gain knowledge from other's.

My basic interests lie in defence and politics. I have some close friends/friends' fathers in a local
pro-development, pro-democracy political party and I plan to join that party when the time is right,
whilst doing a job at one hand to gain enough know-how to start a hardware business that I'm
planning.

I hope you have enough information regarding my activities and plans.

But what baffles me is, how does that affect IAF's or PAF's procurement process? Let's get real
and let's get healthy. What does it concern you if I'm employed or unemployed? That I am a
Hindu or a Muslim? Let's not deviate the topic Mr. Elite Member.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Back
Top Bottom