Pakistan Launches Final Drive on Taliban Bastion

[Icarus]

1. For how long is the PA going to hold ground captured from the militants? If they withdraw, the TTP will be back sooner than later. And that's going to be an unending drain on manpower and resources. Handing these areas over to the police/FC will not be a viable proposition as they aren't trained and equipped for COIN ops.

The Military has been able to withdraw completely from Bajaur and maintains token presence in Malakand as well as Dir without the areas relapsing into Taliban control. The FC of today is not the demoralised, .303 totting militia that it was a decade ago, it has been transformed into an elite paramilitary force which is quite capable of holding the territory against any Taliban advance from across the Durand Line.

2. The TTP have probably already withdrawn most of their forces into areas bordering Afghanistan by now only to be back at a time of their choosing. Seeing the terrain it will be near impossible for the PA to block them from withdrawing into Afghanistan.

Indeed. It is the responsibility of the ISAF and ANA to secure their sides of the border, something that they have consistently failed to achieve. As long as the TTP enjoy safe havens there, they might be able to launch attacks inside Pakistan once in a while but I dare say their days of declaring Independent Islamic Emirates inside Pakistan are now over. They will never be able to return to the pre-2008 situation again.

 

[Neutron]

The Military has been able to withdraw completely from Bajaur and maintains token presence in Malakand as well as Dir without the areas relapsing into Taliban control. The FC of today is not the demoralised, .303 totting militia that it was a decade ago, it has been transformed into an elite paramilitary force which is quite capable of holding the territory against any Taliban advance from across the Durand Line.



Indeed. It is the responsibility of the ISAF and ANA to secure their sides of the border, something that they have consistently failed to achieve. As long as the TTP enjoy safe havens there, they might be able to launch attacks inside Pakistan once in a while but I dare say their days of declaring Independent Islamic Emirates inside Pakistan are now over. They will never be able to return to the pre-2008 situation again.

The responsibility of the military is to clear the Area from insurgents and militants. I think 95 % job done as far as clearance of area is concerned. Shawal is the last objective. Salute to sacrifices of Pakistan Army, and role of PAF.
But I think cleanliness of the area is only military success and it is short term if not converted into national success subsequently.
Now the question is how to convert this military success into national or strategic victory?
It is purely the domain of the civilian government and bureaucracy to lead the development of the area and establish effective district management system including hospitals, schools for better education, protection of women right of education, effective policing and monitoring system.
And I think there is no plan with the federal government to convert this military success into national victory and media is silent about it.

 

[TheNoob]

What a coincidence!! Turkish forces are clearing PKK scums house by house in Sur district of Diyarbakir. It's a very historical place with hundreds of years old structures like mosques, churches etc. InshaAllah both armies will be successful in their missions. One thing I have noticed - casualties of officers in the Pak army is quite high, whereas in the Turkish army it is the NCOs who dominate the number of Shahids.

They are usually in battlefields in command of soldiers.
So its only logical that the taliban have targetted them to demoralise the soldiers and strategy.

makes you think the enemy isnt your usual ragtag towelhead, doesnt it?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

They are usually in battlefields in command of soldiers.
So its only logical that the taliban have targetted them to demoralise the soldiers and strategy.

makes you think the enemy isnt your usual ragtag towelhead, doesnt it?

They are only brainless peons to fulfill agendas of resourceful enemies who have trained and equipped them well. Turkey has been fighting such proxies since nineteenth century in many forms and formats..

 

[lutfishah]

What a coincidence!! Turkish forces are clearing PKK scums house by house in Sur district of Diyarbakir. It's a very historical place with hundreds of years old structures like mosques, churches etc. InshaAllah both armies will be successful in their missions. One thing I have noticed - casualties of officers in the Pak army is quite high, whereas in the Turkish army it is the NCOs who dominate the number of Shahids.

My grand father was from Mardin.

 

[Max]

InshaAllah they can not stand against might of Pakistan Army, but still we should not be overconfident, victory only comes from Allah, so keep praying.

may Allah destroye TTP and other Khawarijs.

May Allah and his Prophet (saww) blessings be with Pak Army,
May Allah bless our Shaheeds with Highest place in jannatul firdous.

 

[TheNoob]

They are only brainless peons to fulfill agendas of resourceful enemies who have trained and equipped them well. Turkey has been fighting such proxies since nineteenth century in many forms and formats..

Definitely true. +1

 

[sady]

I think as a nation, every person who chooses to be a terrorist, there is a hand of society and government as a whole. When whole region of your country becomes known for terrorism then it is the slumber of many previous years of government, non existant development of infrastructure and education, which by far are the only effective weapons. Ofcourse there will be few educated terrorists like Sohrab Goth incident but there will be a general dearth of foot soldiers or cannon fodder for such organisations.

 

[litman]

Defeat is self-defining.

Militants are known to use hostages (even their own families), whom probably didn't get a chance to run, so the military still has to be careful.

But let's say you're right. Your way of fighting is something Pakistan cannot afford. When fighting an insurgency, or any war to gain territory, you want to leave civilian infrastructure in tact. Why? Because if you destroy everything, where are the people under you going to live? So you'll end up having to rebuild the entire area, and with Pakistan's current finances? Not possible.

Pakistan cannot afford a scorched earth doctrine of fighting, that's why F-16s and drones are being used as precision weapons, instead of carpet bombers.

The enemy is not conventional, they leave traps, they hit and then they run, they'll never fight face to face. Your assumptions are basically wrong.

please pay a visit to FATA and then get your facts straight regarding the destruction of the pubic property in these areas during the operations. whole villages have been wiped out. that's why these areas are kept off limits to neutral media people. the people from bajaur claimed few years back the majority of villages destroyed in the operation had no support for the militants. it is very easy to label it as collateral damage. heavy artillery has been and is being used in FATA and artillery dear is not precision weapon. read about the use of the artillery in WW1 and you will understand what damage artillery can bring. as far as "defeat" is concerned keep on living with the delusion that taliban defeated the americans and nato in afghanistan. i am not taking the credit away from the armed forces but yes it is a genuine fact that we have not been able to clear NWA in over 1.5 yrs with all the available resources. swat operation was finished in a much shorter duration then this one. the dynamics are little different but still we have the advantage of the numbers, technology against the enemy ,taliban. we should have cleared it off in less then 6 months. off course border issue will remain as we don't have the say in international community to fence the border and declare the durand line as the permanent border.

The problems the PA would face are:

1. For how long is the PA going to hold ground captured from the militants? If they withdraw, the TTP will be back sooner than later. And that's going to be an unending drain on manpower and resources. Handing these areas over to the police/FC will not be a viable proposition as they aren't trained and equipped for COIN ops.

2. The TTP have probably already withdrawn most of their forces into areas bordering Afghanistan by now only to be back at a time of their choosing. Seeing the terrain it will be near impossible for the PA to block them from withdrawing into Afghanistan.

these are the real dangers and we don't have any solution to these issues. this is a fact. army is deployed in the areas which were cleared years ago like swat but the civil set up doesn't have the capability and the will to take over the responsibility of looking after these areas. army is stretched along the eastern and western fronts and the troops are getting fatigued.

 

[That Guy]

please pay a visit to FATA and then get your facts straight regarding the destruction of the pubic property in these areas during the operations. whole villages have been wiped out. that's why these areas are kept off limits to neutral media people. the people from bajaur claimed few years back the majority of villages destroyed in the operation had no support for the militants. it is very easy to label it as collateral damage. heavy artillery has been and is being used in FATA and artillery dear is not precision weapon. read about the use of the artillery in WW1 and you will understand what damage artillery can bring. as far as "defeat" is concerned keep on living with the delusion that taliban defeated the americans and nato in afghanistan. i am not taking the credit away from the armed forces but yes it is a genuine fact that we have not been able to clear NWA in over 1.5 yrs with all the available resources. swat operation was finished in a much shorter duration then this one. the dynamics are little different but still we have the advantage of the numbers, technology against the enemy ,taliban. we should have cleared it off in less then 6 months. off course border issue will remain as we don't have the say in international community to fence the border and declare the durand line as the permanent border.

Of course, mr. arm-chair general. How about we declare you COAS, as you clearly know better than Pakistan's military strategists.

Nowhere did I say that the US lost to the taliban in Afghanistan, I said that the US was unable to defeat the taliban, there is a clear difference here. Hey, whatever helps you sleep at nigh.

You know, the very fact that you compared ZeA to the SWAT operation shows just how little you actually know. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you, just how different the two are, if you can't even be bothered to get your facts straight.

@waz @Oscar @notorious_eagle @niaz @Irfan Baloch @Icarus

I don't wanna argue anymore, can one of you explain this to him?

 

[litman]

Of course, mr. arm-chair general. How about we declare you COAS, as you clearly know better than Pakistan's military strategists.

Nowhere did I say that the US lost to the taliban in Afghanistan, I said that the US was unable to defeat the taliban, there is a clear difference here. Hey, whatever helps you sleep at nigh.

You know, the very fact that you compared ZeA to the SWAT operation shows just how little you actually know. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you, just how different the two are, if you can't even be bothered to get your facts straight.

@waz @Oscar @notorious_eagle @niaz @Irfan Baloch @Icarus

I don't wanna argue anymore, can one of you explain this to him?

its really easy to sit in a room somewhere in islamabad , lahore , become a think tank while it is very difficult to lose someone in FATA and when your own home gets destroyed in some operation. the fact is that most of the pakistanis don't even consider FATA as part of the pakistan that's why no one cares about the destruction in that area and in addition to that we have given the air space of FATA to america to operate freely. shame on us. live in your self made paradise where every thing is perfect and you are the best in every field from sports to politics and war.
as far as our military strategies are concerned just read some history of the wars from 65 to kargil from some neutral source and you will come to know that we lost all wars due to extremely poor military planning. there was an interview of the famous PAF pilot , sajjad haider, regarding the 65 war which we claim to have won and in that interview he has spoken the truth regarding the planning of the war. again a bitter truth to digest. i ma sure you also think that we "won" all these wars as you have your own definition of defeat.bye

 

[That Guy]

its really easy to sit in a room somewhere in islamabad , lahore , become a think tank while it is very difficult to lose someone in FATA and when your own home gets destroyed in some operation. the fact is that most of the pakistanis don't even consider FATA as part of the pakistan that's why no one cares about the destruction in that area and in addition to that we have given the air space of FATA to america to operate freely. shame on us. live in your self made paradise where every thing is perfect and you are the best in every field from sports to politics and war.
as far as our military strategies are concerned just read some history of the wars from 65 to kargil from some neutral source and you will come to know that we lost all wars due to extremely poor military planning. there was an interview of the famous PAF pilot , sajjad haider, regarding the 65 war which we claim to have won and in that interview he has spoken the truth regarding the planning of the war. again a bitter truth to digest. i ma sure you also think that we "won" all these wars as you have your own definition of defeat.bye

I didn't even present a definition, and I don't live in Pakistan, but sure.

Your comment is nothing more than rhetoric, nothing more.

 

[litman]

I didn't even present a definition, and I don't live in Pakistan, but sure.

Your comment is nothing more than rhetoric, nothing more.

keep on living in denial.

 

[niaz]

Old saying, you can’t make an omelette without breaking the egg. It is therefore correct that there is a lot of collateral damage in FATA.

War is dirty business and Taliban won’t just get up and leave, hence no other way except bombing TTP out which results in large destruction of property. Only way to redress the situation is by rebuilding the homes asap.. You have therefore heard COAS stressing that rehabilitation of the IDP’s was the top priority.

Despite the fact that Operation Zarbe Azb has been going on for quite some time, Taliban are still strong enough and Capt. Umair Abbasi was martyred a couple of days ago. The problem here is winning of ‘Hearts & minds' of the local population in which sadly Zarbe Azb has not been very successful.

Main reason for this could be that most of our countrymen, even many educated ones are generally ignorant about religious teaching. They are easily swayed by unscrupulous mullahs if Islam’s name is used. Most glaring example was that a retired High Court Judge made a cold blooded killer Mumtaz Qadri a ‘hero’.

Besides, many political parties such as Jamaat Islami, JUI etc. actually supported Taliban cause. Even the Oxford educated Taliban Khan was passionate about Taliban that he offered to open TTP Office in KPK. Under such circumstances, TTP menace may become less but will not be wiped out from Pakistan until such time that bigots like Munawwar Hassan of JI are alive (who call TTP leaders Shaheed but Pak Army Jawans merely killed) and Lal Masjid Mullah goes unchecked despite his refusal to even condemn killing of the Army school kids.

 

[TheNoob]

@litman
I do not have the time to read the posts between you and guy.
However, from the gist.
Are you suggesting the use of maximum force or minimum?