Pakistan - Khorasanian (Tajik) relationship

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

You probably haven't met the Tajikized Afghan Pashtuns like I have living in Kabul & places like Panjsher, they are not fluent in Pashto either. Pakistan is not a mess like Afghanistan, because people generally think about the common & overall good of society; uniting together than being divided like the Afghans are. Urdu is the franca lingua in Pakistan, like Dari is the franca lingua in Afghanistan (Urdu is not superior to any regional language in Pakistan, it is relatively easier to learn than other regional languages of Pakistan, which is why it has been adopted by Pakistan for Pakistanis). There is nothing that unites the various ethnicities of Afghanistan together, which is why it is a failed state. Urdu is a common means for us to understand one another, religion is the glue that holds us together & keeps us away from ethnic divide. According to a recent Gallup poll, 89% of Pakistanis consider themselves as Pakistani first & their ethnic groups second.. The people that do not consider themselves to be Pakistanis are free to move to Afghanistan & live with their brethren there.

I am not against urdu as communicating langauge, i am against urdufication. And as for as religion is concerned, then afghans are also muslims, the practical ones.
I consider myself pakistani by nationality but i have dared to say the fact that pashtun=afghan, and you are asking me to pack my bags and go to afghanistan. Such is the stature of us in the country.

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

Intriguing discussion premised on Afghan=Pashtun being peddled here caught my eye. What a primordial concept!
Fact that such revanchist philosphy finds purchase among bazaars of Hindu Kush is telling for 21st century nation trying to drag this land of miseries into something a bit more modern.

A superficial analogy was made here regarding Germans, Austrians, Koreans, Kurds & Persians. So if this gentleman was in USA then would he accept the primacy of English speaking Anglo-Saxons in America above all others? Good grief?

It is a testament to this august nation that this primitive argument was decided decades ago and anyone spouting such "eloquence" would be laughed out of his own head.

Just for Ha Ha.....If Afghan=means=Pashtun only (and others take a number to be allowed IN) then why is the official language of Afghanistan Farsi - read Tajik if you will?

And NO the Austrians do NOT call themselves Germans. They speak german but are Austrians; just as Americans speak English but are NOT English. Complexities of human existence.

Enough of this irredentist nonsense. Back to the topic; I do think there is much merit in Korasanian's argument in laying foundation for a broader ties between peoples of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and beyond. You share history, geography, some linguistic threads, and if smart can share billion$ in trade and commerce.

Originally when the Afghan "Pashtun" royalists were veritable puppets of Kremlin, they drank the communism Kool-aid with socialists in New Delhi, and then smoked the Pashtun Wali pipe with a special blend of Red communism with hagiographists of Bacha Khan in obscure tea rooms of Peshawar. In those times Tajiks had no better friend than Pakistan. In fact the Great Ahmed Shah Masood showed up in Peshawar as a student requesting "training" from Pak Intelligence. However, the lasting legacy of Soviet foray into south Central Asia was to seal the fate of Pashtun aristocracy in Kabul. Which allowed non-Pashtuns to become more assertive as well as allow Pakistani err, "Lar" Pashtuns to begin to contrast much more favorably against their "bar" cousins. Historically a prosperous and more numerous peoples have never quit a richer nation to join a poorer nation to be with their poorer and less numerous cousins but maybe Pashtuns will make history. Anyone who expects 35+million lars to join 15 million bars in a country with GDP less than 10th of Pakistan gives me pause. Do you think American mexicans would one day exit US to join Mexico?

In modern times it is the flag you salute to, the passport you hold and the anthem you sing that informs your identity. Do you think Shah Rukh Khan is Pashtun Or Indian?

Once again back on topic: If Pakistan was to re-engage with Tajiks especially some particular leaders in northern Badakshan ( I cannot be more frank) province then it may give Paks more Stragtegic Options and place their Central Asian policy on more even keel away from their pashtun hangover. Hence the need to develop Durrah pass to broaden trade links with central asians away from Pashtun badlands. Enough said.
Carpedium!!

Intriguing discussion premised on Afghan=Pashtun being peddled here caught my eye. What a primordial concept!
Fact that such revanchist philosphy finds purchase among bazaars of Hindu Kush is telling for 21st century nation trying to drag this land of miseries into something a bit more modern.

A superficial analogy was made here regarding Germans, Austrians, Koreans, Kurds & Persians. So if this gentleman was in USA then would he accept the primacy of English speaking Anglo-Saxons in America above all others? Good grief?

It is a testament to this august nation that this primitive argument was decided decades ago and anyone spouting such "eloquence" would be laughed out of his own head.

Just for Ha Ha.....If Afghan=means=Pashtun only (and others take a number to be allowed IN) then why is the official language of Afghanistan Farsi - read Tajik if you will?

And NO the Austrians do NOT call themselves Germans. They speak german but are Austrians; just as Americans speak English but are NOT English. Complexities of human existence.

Enough of this irredentist nonsense. Back to the topic; I do think there is much merit in Korasanian's argument in laying foundation for a broader ties between peoples of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and beyond. You share history, geography, some linguistic threads, and if smart can share billion$ in trade and commerce.

Originally when the Afghan "Pashtun" royalists were veritable puppets of Kremlin, they drank the communism Kool-aid with socialists in New Delhi, and then smoked the Pashtun Wali pipe with a special blend of Red communism with hagiographists of Bacha Khan in obscure tea rooms of Peshawar. In those times Tajiks had no better friend than Pakistan. In fact the Great Ahmed Shah Masood showed up in Peshawar as a student requesting "training" from Pak Intelligence. However, the lasting legacy of Soviet foray into south Central Asia was to seal the fate of Pashtun aristocracy in Kabul. Which allowed non-Pashtuns to become more assertive as well as allow Pakistani err, "Lar" Pashtuns to begin to contrast much more favorably against their "bar" cousins. Historically a prosperous and more numerous peoples have never quit a richer nation to join a poorer nation to be with their poorer and less numerous cousins but maybe Pashtuns will make history. Anyone who expects 35+million lars to join 15 million bars in a country with GDP less than 10th of Pakistan gives me pause. Do you think American mexicans would one day exit US to join Mexico?

In modern times it is the flag you salute to, the passport you hold and the anthem you sing that informs your identity. Do you think Shah Rukh Khan is Pashtun Or Indian?

Once again back on topic: If Pakistan was to re-engage with Tajiks especially some particular leaders in northern Badakshan ( I cannot be more frank) province then it may give Paks more Stragtegic Options and place their Central Asian policy on more even keel away from their pashtun hangover. Hence the need to develop Durrah pass to broaden trade links with central asians away from Pashtun badlands. Enough said.
Carpedium!!

 

[53fd]

I am not against urdu as communicating langauge, i am against urdufication. And as for as religion is concerned, then afghans are also muslims, the practical ones.
I consider myself pakistani by nationality but i have dared to say the fact that pashtun=afghan, and you are asking me to pack my bags and go to afghanistan. Such is the stature of us in the country.

I have never said, or even implied that you should go to Afghanistan. You consider yourself Pakistani, I was referring to the people that don't consider themselves Pakistanis.

There is no such thing as Urdufication, Pakistan renamed NWFP as Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, & the province is governed by Pakhtuns, they are elected by the local populace; so they are free to do whatever they like. Likewise, here in Sindh, we also have Sindhi medium schools in most of the province.

Pashtun is Afghan according to old Afghan literature, but there is a difference between the present day land called Afghanistan, & the land referred in old Afghan literature. Hence, the present day Afghan (which includes Pashtuns & non-Pashtuns such as Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks etc) is different from the Afghan you mention.

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

Excuse my double post redux & other language errors.

 

[Icarus]

I dont know whether to appreciate or criticize punjabi to forsake their langauge and culture for that of delhi and UP. I wont comment on them.
Let me talk about my people, you gave me examples of ayub khan and imran khan, that they are/were ethnically non-pashto speaking pathans. Things doesnt work like this in pashtun society, we doesnt classfy ourselves on racial lines. We have jats, awans, qureshis syeds etc among ourselves, they have adopted pashto and for us they are pashtun for us, not ayub khan or imran khan. I am marwat, and niazis are our cousins and neighbours but we call them "punjabiyan" as they speak seraiki.
and we also measure ourselves by pakhtunwali. A ghairatmand punjabi would be more respectable to us then a pashtun of weak character.

Having lived in KPK for over half a decade and operated everywhere from Peshawar, to Khyber, Bajaur and Swat, I am well aware of the code of Pukhtunwali. What I tried to imply was that the choice to forsake your culture has nothing to do with the Federation and is in fact, not even relevant to the discussion. Pukhtun culture is safe, any changes in the language are due to it's constantly evolving nature. I bet even the Afghans don't speak Pukhto as it was spoken 2500 years ago, on it's inception. Would that imply that they are also being 'Darri-ized', as you said about Urdu's influence on Pakistani Pukhto?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Intriguing discussion premised on Afghan=Pashtun being peddled here caught my eye. What a primordial concept!
Fact that such revanchist philosphy finds purchase among bazaars of Hindu Kush is telling for 21st century nation trying to drag this land of miseries into something a bit more modern.

A superficial analogy was made here regarding Germans, Austrians, Koreans, Kurds & Persians. So if this gentleman was in USA then would he accept the primacy of English speaking Anglo-Saxons in America above all others? Good grief?

It is a testament to this august nation that this primitive argument was decided decades ago and anyone spouting such "eloquence" would be laughed out of his own head.

Just for Ha Ha.....If Afghan=means=Pashtun only (and others take a number to be allowed IN) then why is the official language of Afghanistan Farsi - read Tajik if you will?

And NO the Austrians do NOT call themselves Germans. They speak german but are Austrians; just as Americans speak English but are NOT English. Complexities of human existence.

Enough of this irredentist nonsense. Back to the topic; I do think there is much merit in Korasanian's argument in laying foundation for a broader ties between peoples of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and beyond. You share history, geography, some linguistic threads, and if smart can share billion$ in trade and commerce.

Originally when the Afghan "Pashtun" royalists were veritable puppets of Kremlin, they drank the communism Kool-aid with socialists in New Delhi, and then smoked the Pashtun Wali pipe with a special blend of Red communism with hagiographists of Bacha Khan in obscure tea rooms of Peshawar. In those times Tajiks had no better friend than Pakistan. In fact the Great Ahmed Shah Masood showed up in Peshawar as a student requesting "training" from Pak Intelligence. However, the lasting legacy of Soviet foray into south Central Asia was to seal the fate of Pashtun aristocracy in Kabul. Which allowed non-Pashtuns to become more assertive as well as allow Pakistani err, "Lar" Pashtuns to begin to contrast much more favorably against their "bar" cousins. Historically a prosperous and more numerous peoples have never quit a richer nation to join a poorer nation to be with their poorer and less numerous cousins but maybe Pashtuns will make history. Anyone who expects 35+million lars to join 15 million bars in a country with GDP less than 10th of Pakistan gives me pause. Do you think American mexicans would one day exit US to join Mexico?

In modern times it is the flag you salute to, the passport you hold and the anthem you sing that informs your identity. Do you think Shah Rukh Khan is Pashtun Or Indian?

Once again back on topic: If Pakistan was to re-engage with Tajiks especially some particular leaders in northern Badakshan ( I cannot be more frank) province then it may give Paks more Stragtegic Options and place their Central Asian policy on more even keel away from their pashtun hangover. Hence the need to develop Durrah pass to broaden trade links with central asians away from Pashtun badlands. Enough said.
Carpedium!!

Intriguing discussion premised on Afghan=Pashtun being peddled here caught my eye. What a primordial concept!
Fact that such revanchist philosphy finds purchase among bazaars of Hindu Kush is telling for 21st century nation trying to drag this land of miseries into something a bit more modern.

A superficial analogy was made here regarding Germans, Austrians, Koreans, Kurds & Persians. So if this gentleman was in USA then would he accept the primacy of English speaking Anglo-Saxons in America above all others? Good grief?

It is a testament to this august nation that this primitive argument was decided decades ago and anyone spouting such "eloquence" would be laughed out of his own head.

Just for Ha Ha.....If Afghan=means=Pashtun only (and others take a number to be allowed IN) then why is the official language of Afghanistan Farsi - read Tajik if you will?

And NO the Austrians do NOT call themselves Germans. They speak german but are Austrians; just as Americans speak English but are NOT English. Complexities of human existence.

Enough of this irredentist nonsense. Back to the topic; I do think there is much merit in Korasanian's argument in laying foundation for a broader ties between peoples of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and beyond. You share history, geography, some linguistic threads, and if smart can share billion$ in trade and commerce.

Originally when the Afghan "Pashtun" royalists were veritable puppets of Kremlin, they drank the communism Kool-aid with socialists in New Delhi, and then smoked the Pashtun Wali pipe with a special blend of Red communism with hagiographists of Bacha Khan in obscure tea rooms of Peshawar. In those times Tajiks had no better friend than Pakistan. In fact the Great Ahmed Shah Masood showed up in Peshawar as a student requesting "training" from Pak Intelligence. However, the lasting legacy of Soviet foray into south Central Asia was to seal the fate of Pashtun aristocracy in Kabul. Which allowed non-Pashtuns to become more assertive as well as allow Pakistani err, "Lar" Pashtuns to begin to contrast much more favorably against their "bar" cousins. Historically a prosperous and more numerous peoples have never quit a richer nation to join a poorer nation to be with their poorer and less numerous cousins but maybe Pashtuns will make history. Anyone who expects 35+million lars to join 15 million bars in a country with GDP less than 10th of Pakistan gives me pause. Do you think American mexicans would one day exit US to join Mexico?

In modern times it is the flag you salute to, the passport you hold and the anthem you sing that informs your identity. Do you think Shah Rukh Khan is Pashtun Or Indian?

Once again back on topic: If Pakistan was to re-engage with Tajiks especially some particular leaders in northern Badakshan ( I cannot be more frank) province then it may give Paks more Stragtegic Options and place their Central Asian policy on more even keel away from their pashtun hangover. Hence the need to develop Durrah pass to broaden trade links with central asians away from Pashtun badlands. Enough said.
Carpedium!!

why you are talking in a funny way?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Having lived in KPK for over half a decade and operated everywhere from Peshawar, to Khyber, Bajaur and Swat, I am well aware of the code of Pukhtunwali. What I tried to imply was that the choice to forsake your culture has nothing to do with the Federation and is in fact, not even relevant to the discussion. Pukhtun culture is safe, any changes in the language are due to it's constantly evolving nature. I bet even the Afghans don't speak Pukhto as it was spoken 2500 years ago, on it's inception. Would that imply that they are also being 'Darri-ized', as you said about Urdu's influence on Pakistani Pukhto?

I agree with your point that pashto is evolving, its natural process.
By the way are you in army?

 

[Icarus]

I am not against urdu as communicating langauge, i am against urdufication. And as for as religion is concerned, then afghans are also muslims, the practical ones.
I consider myself pakistani by nationality but i have dared to say the fact that pashtun=afghan, and you are asking me to pack my bags and go to afghanistan. Such is the stature of us in the country.

That fact was relevant before 1883, when the Afghan King traded KPK and it's people to the British for protection of his throne. The present day KPK is no longer the Afghania of 1883 and the Afghanistan of today is no longer the Afghanistan of 1883. It is no longer a Pukhtun concern with other ethnic groups here and there, the new Afghanistan is a mutual concern and Non-Pukhtuns are active stakeholders in it's administration, progress and development.

I agree with your point that pashto is evolving, its natural process.
By the way are you in army?

Intelligence, I was a part of the push against the TTP from 2008-2010.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

That fact was relevant before 1883, when the Afghan King traded KPK and it's people to the British for protection of his throne. The present day KPK is no longer the Afghania of 1883 and the Afghanistan of today is no longer the Afghanistan of 1883. It is no longer a Pukhtun concern with other ethnic groups here and there, the new Afghanistan is a mutual concern and Non-Pukhtuns are active stakeholders in it's administration, progress and development.



Intelligence, I was a part of the push against the TTP from 2008-2010.

Afghan king indeed traded us. Lamho ne khata ki sadio ne saza pai.
If i agree with your point then pakistani governament has to do some thing about form b, land records and other documents when our "nasal/qomiat" is written as afghan.
Waise hum lafz afghan ko shanakht k tor par istimaal nahi karte, kyun aab ye term confusing ho chaka he. Afghan se aj kal murad afghanistan ka bashinda hota he. Lekin hamari pashto literature may hum apne liye afghan ka lafz use karte rehte hain.
So u r in intelligence. I want to ask you an off-topic question, if u r comfortable then can u tell me that does ISI support talibans in afghanistan against US?

 

[Omar1984]

Monkey D Luffy is an Afghani refugee living in Pakistan. All his previous posts have been anti-pakistan and pro-loyta afghanistan and pro-india. Ignore him, there are too many Afghani refugees in Pakistan. Soon they will all be sent back home.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Monkey D Luffy is an Afghani refugee living in Pakistan. All his previous posts have been anti-pakistan and pro-loyta afghanistan and pro-india. Ignore him, there are too many Afghani refugees in Pakistan. Soon they will all be sent back home.

I am a pakistani only while you have american nationality. Tum jaise maghrib-zada logo ko tu pakistan k bare may mun hi nahi kolna chahiye.

 

[Icarus]

Afghan king indeed traded us. Lamho ne khata ki sadio ne saza pai.
If i agree with your point then pakistani governament has to do some thing about form b, land records and other documents when our "nasal/qomiat" is written as afghan.
Waise hum lafz afghan ko shanakht k tor par istimaal nahi karte, kyun aab ye term confusing ho chaka he. Afghan se aj kal murad afghanistan ka bashinda hota he. Lekin hamari pashto literature may hum apne liye afghan ka lafz use karte rehte hain.
So u r in intelligence. I want to ask you an off-topic question, if u r comfortable then can u tell me that does ISI support talibans in afghanistan against US?

In that light of events yes, if you look at it from the perspective of a hundred year old term, then yes KPK was Afghania and it's people were called Afghans but with the changing times, the definition of the word 'Afghan' has under gone massive change.

As for your second question, no the ISI is not supporting any militant groups against NATO/ISAF/US/ANA forces.

I am a pakistani only while you have american nationality. Tum jaise maghrib-zada logo ko tu pakistan k bare may mun hi nahi kolna chahiye.

Whereas I would side with you in condemning Omar's post, since I don't believe that people should be labelled traitors based on their beliefs, I would condemn your response to his post as well, as you might no, the expats are the single largest source of foreign exchange in Pakistan. Remittances from expats ensure that our economy is able to sustain us. We them a great debt.

 

[53fd]

nope there is nothing wrong with jirga, our elders and pashtunwali. Talibanization, extremism , jihadism is injected into pashtun society by pakistan...uss zia ul haq ka kamal he...Pakistan is responsible for talibanization and other related *****.

Yar teri location barri khatarnak he. Hamare jirga system, humare culture ka agar koi mazak urrata he ya hame koi taliban kehta he, tu wo tumare shehar se hi aksar hota he.

Talibanization, Jihadism all came from the Afghan people (who formed the Taliban & the Mujahideen, & other groups like the Hizb-e-Islami etc), supported by the US & the international community against the Soviets, who had a proxy regime in Afghanistan that served their interests. It is futile to blame Pakistan for the mess created by the Afghan people themselves. And the Taliban has never been under the control of the ISI; they are their own people, own entity. Your post is full of baseless speculations that you have no evidence to back them with. Just because your Pashtun 'brother' Sher Malang says does not make it true.

 

[KingMamba]

For the people who really think pushtun = afghan look up afghan border incursion of 1961-1962 and see who the people of khyber fought alongside than you will have your answer.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

In that light of events yes, if you look at it from the perspective of a hundred year old term, then yes KPK was Afghania and it's people were called Afghans but with the changing times, the definition of the word 'Afghan' has under gone massive change.

As for your second question, no the ISI is not supporting any militant groups against NATO/ISAF/US/ANA forces.




Whereas I would side with you in condemning Omar's post, since I don't believe that people should be labelled traitors based on their beliefs, I would condemn your response to his post as well, as you might no, the expats are the single largest source of foreign exchange in Pakistan. Remittances from expats ensure that our economy is able to sustain us. We them a great debt.

I agree with your point and thank for your answer about talibans..
As for as american citizens are concerned then i dont think they are source of foriegn exchange for pakistan, its actually the hardworking pakistanis in gulf countries who bring their income to their families in pakistan.
Urdu meri madri zaban he, lekin may iss burger-eater omar se shart laga kar kehta hun k mere saath urdu bol kar dikaye.