Pakistan Inadvertantly Admits That Its First Strike Capability Is Neutered:--

[GURU DUTT]

Sir, please understand.

1. Pakistan's ability of mass nuclear attack is intact and will remain so even after a mass attack by India.

2. ABM doesn't give an assured defence. It never has to any country, least of it India. Nobody takes chances with an incoming nuke.

3. Tactical nuclear weapons are aimed at adding another layer before going full nuclear. It also blunts the criticism of First User and puts it back on India as being the aggressor.

4. Crying nuclear weapons only happens in fanboy forums like this one. Policy statements from responsible officers rarely mention Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Pakistan maintains a policy of nuclear ambiguity which means it never tells when and under what conditions it will go nuclear. Pakistan's nuclear red lines are unknown except a select few.

5. Contrary to normal perception, conventional strength of Pakistan is enough to hold India at bay for considerable length of time. India will receive a pretty bad bloody nose in conventional war. There is a reason that they took to proxy terrorism. They understand this fact. Another evidence is frantic weapon buying by India. At the moment, they are not good enough to overwhelm Pakistan. They will never be able to match China. Ever.

6. I agree that imbalance exists on conventional front especially on Navy and Air Force sides. We must work to close this gap.

Only two questions

1. what do you think india will do and how will it respond as it sees a dozen of neuclear launch sites in pakistan going active (india dont just has AWACS, GBR's or aerostats there is much much more) and do you think india will wiat till a couple of dozen neukes explode here i say a single cruise or billistic missile detected from pakistan side means india bushing the little red button make no mistake about it

2. when the war starts and world opinion is against your nation do you think china will side by you knowing the trouble brewing already in its backyard/east and take on all of them and do you think USA wont come in the picture then ?

thanks and just keep it civil

 

[shah1398]

Hi,

You are a very well informed poster---it would do a great good if you focus on the merits of having a stronger weapons systems capability. Thank you.

In a speech there are a lots of things said to get your keen attention---and when your attention is focused---other relative issues are brought up to get you to get at the sequence of things that are happening and the consequences related to those issues---.

As for india's attacks---they have attacked you many a times since 2005---you may not have felt them----but the reverberance has been heard throughout the world.

Sir agreed on that but plz consider these points too.

(1) The fact that if we didnt get 72 F-16s (but only 18 Block 52s) we atleast are getting rid of old Mirages and F-7s now and at the same time India is worried on how to cater for the drastically and fastly depleting numbers of their fighter Squadrons.

(2) It was post 2005 that we went on modernizing our Armed Forces at fast pace esp the Air Force.

(a) Indians got their Mirages refurbished so did our F-16s.
(b) We got AWACs (SAAB-2000 and ZDK), SPADA.
(c) Army got new Bell 412s, Eurocopter AS350s, bunch of used AH-1s, FM-90s.
(d) Navy got its frigates, P-3s refurbished, Inducted Z9EC and now going for submarines.
(e) Multiple UAV platforms inducted .
(f) On missile side we got Babur, Raad, Shaheen III, Nasr etc.
(d) On weapons side not to forget that BVR capability, advanced targeting and recce pods, advanced PGMs etc.

I had deliberately left few of the newest acquisition.

(3) All these acquisitions were post 2005. Point here is that given the small time of just 10 years we have got so much and so advanced tech that we never had got collectively post 1947 till 2005. Again my point is that India needs S-400 firstly to safeguard New Delhi and then other spots. If their ABMs are so much capable then why not just rely on them?

(4) We all keep on cursing the corrupt generals, the weak Navy and an F-16 obsessed Air Force but would not consider the above mentioned facts and that these are acquired and commissioned by the same lot.

(5) Yes we had been attacked but given the circumstances we were busy in extinguishing fire in our own courtyard so our response to those attacks were bare minimum for some reason.

(6) We have totally overhauled our training set up esp in all 3 Armed Forces and even have transformed FC from performing just policing to a full fledged Fighting Force.

(7) It was post 2005 that for the world considered Pakistan esp FATA as the hub and launchpad of more than 80% of terrorist attacks all over the world and here we are now where world has appreciated our efforts and the tag has been removed. U can yourself see how post Mumbai attacks world reacted and how post Gordaspur and Pathankot the reaction was. In former case India had easily mobilized its troops for a full fledged war and in later case U know whats happening.

(8) So no Sir we have not gone in hibernation post 2005 but have emerged more powerful than were ever before. IN SHA ALLAH our stride to excellence will keep on getting boost in times to come as there is no backing off now.

 

[knight11]

Only two questions

1. what do you think india will do and how will it respond as it sees a dozen of neuclear launch sites in pakistan going active (india dont just has AWACS, GBR's or aerostats there is much much more) and do you think india will wiat till a couple of dozen neukes explode here i say a single cruise or billistic missile detected from pakistan side means india bushing the little red button make no mistake about it

2. when the war starts and world opinion is against your nation do you think china will side by you knowing the trouble brewing already in its backyard/east and take on all of them and do you think USA wont come in the picture then ?

thanks and just keep it civil

They will sit back, all this below is just for the show and drama

 

[shah1398]

Only two questions

1. what do you think india will do and how will it respond as it sees a dozen of neuclear launch sites in pakistan going active (india dont just has AWACS, GBR's or aerostats there is much much more) and do you think india will wiat till a couple of dozen neukes explode here i say a single cruise or billistic missile detected from pakistan side means india bushing the little red button make no mistake about it

2. when the war starts and world opinion is against your nation do you think china will side by you knowing the trouble brewing already in its backyard/east and take on all of them and do you think USA wont come in the picture then ?

thanks and just keep it civil

Sir if i may.... First of all our Nukes are just for deterrence. We have no desire of entering into MAD by firing a nuke when a bullet would do the job. Nuke is the final option if we are being over run beyond control and then and only then yes we would go for them. In that case we would pay a damn to what world would think about us as if we are over run and our existence perishes then who would just give a damn.

 

[calmDown@all]

China , would be eating soup while all this is happening

aisa kya

 

[GURU DUTT]

Sir if i may.... First of all our Nukes are just for deterrence. We have no desire of entering into MAD by firing a nuke when a bullet would do the job. Nuke is the final option if we are being over run beyond control and then and only then yes we would go for them. In that case we would pay a damn to what world would think about us as if we are over run and our existence perishes then who would just give a damn.

You are right buddy nukes are the last resort weapons but given the distance between two nations none of the two will think its not nuke tipped attack from the word go and that means MAD and trust me once its starts it wont take more than say couple of days to make north & northwest south asia (pakistan-indian punjab & rajastahan & maybe gujrat) a nuklear waste land for at least a 1000 years but then what ?

i say its high time instead of pulling india down to its level pakistanies should start thinking of ways how to make pakistan the nation its founding fathers wanted it to be

 

[kaykay]

Sir agreed on that but plz consider these points too.

(1) The fact that if we didnt get 72 F-16s (but only 18 Block 52s) we atleast are getting rid of old Mirages and F-7s now and at the same time India is worried on how to cater for the drastically and fastly depleting numbers of their fighter Squadrons.

(2) It was post 2005 that we went on modernizing our Armed Forces at fast pace esp the Air Force.

(a) Indians got their Mirages refurbished so did our F-16s.
(b) We got AWACs (SAAB-2000 and ZDK), SPADA.
(c) Army got new Bell 412s, Eurocopter AS350s, bunch of used AH-1s, FM-90s.
(d) Navy got its frigates, P-3s refurbished, Inducted Z9EC and now going for submarines.
(e) Multiple UAV platforms inducted .
(f) On missile side we got Babur, Raad, Shaheen III, Nasr etc.
(d) On weapons side not to forget that BVR capability, advanced targeting and recce pods, advanced PGMs etc.

I had deliberately left few of the newest acquisition.

(3) All these acquisitions were post 2005. Point here is that given the small time of just 10 years we have got so much and so advanced tech that we never had got collectively post 1947 till 2005. Again my point is that India needs S-400 firstly to safeguard New Delhi and then other spots. If their ABMs are so much capable then why not just rely on them?

(4) We all keep on cursing the corrupt generals, the weak Navy and an F-16 obsessed Air Force but would not consider the above mentioned facts and that these are acquired and commissioned by the same lot.

(5) Yes we had been attacked but given the circumstances we were busy in extinguishing fire in our own courtyard so our response to those attacks were bare minimum for some reason.

(6) We have totally overhauled our training set up esp in all 3 Armed Forces and even have transformed FC from performing just policing to a full fledged Fighting Force.

(7) It was post 2005 that for the world considered Pakistan esp FATA as the hub and launchpad of more than 80% of terrorist attacks all over the world and here we are now where world has appreciated our efforts and the tag has been removed. U can yourself see how post Mumbai attacks world reacted and how post Gordaspur and Pathankot the reaction was. In former case India had easily mobilized its troops for a full fledged war and in later case U know whats happening.

(8) So no Sir we have not gone in hibernation post 2005 but have emerged more powerful than were ever before. IN SHA ALLAH our stride to excellence will keep on getting boost in times to come as there is no backing off now.

First let me clear that I have no intention to be spokesperson of MK so I won't answer what u have asked him. I just came across your post and wanted to clarify few things.
1. Yes India is desperate to replace its aging fleet but at the same time it has inducted a large number of advance jets in last 10 years replacing oldies, It will go on for quite some time in future too.
2. Indian ABM system is an altitude based ABM system ( like US THAAD) while S-400 is primarily designed to counter many threats like Aster-30 which includes Fighters, Cruise missiles and short range BMs at greater distance but not like THAAD or AAD/PDV(India) who are designed to shoot down BMs at altitude of their terminal phase. So S-400 India is buying is not for ABM purpose but rather other purposes.

 

[Paksanity]

Only two questions

1. what do you think india will do and how will it respond as it sees a dozen of neuclear launch sites in pakistan going active (india dont just has AWACS, GBR's or aerostats there is much much more) and do you think india will wiat till a couple of dozen neukes explode here i say a single cruise or billistic missile detected from pakistan side means india bushing the little red button make no mistake about it

2. when the war starts and world opinion is against your nation do you think china will side by you knowing the trouble brewing already in its backyard/east and take on all of them and do you think USA wont come in the picture then ?

thanks and just keep it civil

Answers

1. Missiles will start flying from day one. Armed with conventional warheads. There are thousands of them. Not all can be tipped with nukes. India will not do anything until a nuke is launched and is either intercepted midway or explodes.

2. What really is world opinion? There is no such thing is world opinion. It is western opinion termed as world opinion. Does China care about western (or so termed world's) opinion? Look at South China Sea and you will see when it comes to its interests, China doesn't give a damn what West thinks. Strong Pakistan is in China's interest. China will protect its interest.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Answers

1. Missiles will start flying from day one. Armed with conventional warheads. There are thousands of them. Not all can be tipped with nukes. India will not do anything until a nuke is launched and is either intercepted midway or explodes.

2. What really is world opinion? There is no such thing is world opinion. It is western opinion termed as world opinion. Does China care about western (or so termed world's) opinion? Look at South China Sea and you will see when it comes to its interests, China doesn't give a damn what West thinks. Strong Pakistan is in China's interest. China will protect its interest.

1.well you are mistaken sir none of us two nations will wait for any of the enemy missile to explode on its soil to verify its nuklear tipped or not

2.india has so called strategick deapth and can sustain a war but pakistan cant even if its not nuklear war there are already hundreds of bhrmos deployed all along indo pak border now calculate the speed and distance bhrmos kind of missiles to rech its target and oppostion/AMD-BMD it faces as all pakistani prime targets are within 50-175 KM from india border but all indian targets are at least 105-450 Km from the border now calculate the time they need to reach there targets and also the distance they need to cover and what kind of oppostion they will face

good luck

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

How about some Innovation

Take 20 of these

Add a little Twist

Instant Joy

 

[JonAsad]

Exactly

To attack Maharastra, Pakistan needs fighter plane that could drop bombs but before that that which can breech SAM, IAF, and INaF cover. And for that range, the fighter plane with 2 drop tanks, how much load could they carry and high probability of high ettiration loss, the cost of one bomb drop will be so high, which I fear is not feasible for PAF. Surface fleet have to face powerful Indian Navy, which will leave Karachi vulnerable, and with Submarine which looks like most effective and appropriate tool with its cruise missiles, could be easily neutralized with ASR capability, which India is increasing. Could you please explain how you are planning to attack such long distance along the sea.

none of our ballistic missiles reach maharastra?-

 

[Paksanity]

1.well you are mistaken sir none of us two nations will wait for any of the enemy missile to explode on its soil to verify its nuklear tipped or not

2.india has so called strategick deapth and can sustain a war but pakistan cant even if its not nuklear war there are already hundreds of bhrmos deployed all along indo pak border now calculate the speed and distance bhrmos kind of missiles to rech its target and oppostion/AMD-BMD it faces as all pakistani prime targets are within 50-175 KM from india border but all indian targets are at least 105-450 Km from the border now calculate the time they need to reach there targets and also the distance they need to cover and what kind of oppostion they will face

good luck

There is a reason nuclear weapons are called deterrence. It is easy to count your weapons and feel good in peace time. From Pakistan's side equation is simple. Both countries will die if we are pushed against wall. Your government knows it. Understands it. Its your words against Indian Foreign minister's words in Indian parliament. She says"war with Pakistan is NOT an option". Perhaps she knows something that you and I don't.

And no, you can't just go berserk because there is an incoming missile. Real world doesn't work that way. Your politicians are not that stupid to push the red button just because there is a missile incoming. That would be a suicide on international forum. World will come and disarm you because scared kids can't be trusted with weapons.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Better word should be Aerostat Survellance AEW system than a ballon. ARDRE is working on such Aerostat, and soon will be deployed all along the border.

Aerostat based AEWs are already deployed; 9 of them were ordered from Israel. The DRDO design is being tweaked and upgraded.

 

[knight11]

none of our ballistic missiles reach maharastra?-

This have a problem, because
1. Ballastic missile capable of reaching Maharashtra is not a cheap for conventional attack.
2. Every Ballastic missile will be considered as the Nuclear attack, thus triggering the nuclear response which will be massive and to give the unimaginable destruction as stated by the Indian Doctrine, even though it was a conventional attack.
3. Massive attack to destroy each and every TEL or the launching installation.

Aerostat based AEWs are already deployed; 9 of them were ordered from Israel. The DRDO design is being tweaked and upgraded.

Indian Aerostat are in advance stage, and will be soon deployed. The Aerostat are deployed at 1 KM from the surface, and it will depend on the requirement, that the payload are been fitted on those aerostat.

 

[JonAsad]

This have a problem, because
1. Ballastic missile capable of reaching Maharashtra is not a cheap for conventional attack.
2. Every Ballastic missile will be considered as the Nuclear attack, thus triggering the nuclear response which will be massive and to give the unimaginable destruction as stated by the Indian Doctrine, even though it was a conventional attack.
3. Massive attack to destroy each and every TEL or the launching installation.

this way we cant even fire a Babur cruise missile?- because it can carry a nuclear warhead-