Pakistan in talks for J-10 & have ordered KJ 2000?

[drunken-monke]

That's a good point. I should have taken into account the production and maintenance cost as well.

However I should've mentioned as I've been mentioning ever since my first post on this forum that I am a big advocate of UCAVs and PAF should definitely give them a high-priority. My general argument is that Pakistan should stop playing catch up and really focus on the future because I suppose the F-16s...J-10s and even the JFTs ain't gonna be of much help after 10-15 years.

Minimum deterrence is what the policy of PAF.. Remember its a defensive force..

AI can not substitute human intelligence and its decision making capacity.. Hence fighter jets handled by pilots is gonna have a long stay.. F16, Jf17 and J10s are not only to have minimum defensive force, but also to replace the aging fleet of fighter jets in PAF.. the same way IAF or any other air-force in the world would do/is doing.. You cant have the old age A5 and Mirages for any further.. Transformation is a must and indeed part of any professional AF..

About capability, let me give you one example, in PAF F86 was very capable aircraft, and had good operational history. But yet it has been replaced.. Why?? Because, its service life was expired. and you cant expect it to take on Mig 21, 23, 27, 29 and M2K. (IAF inventry in 80's) hence they procured F16's.. Which I must say are still a very potent aircraft.. Hence, current 4 gen aircraft under planning for PAF gonna have service for another 35-40 years and might have face Su30's MIg 29s M2Ks and rafales in (least) possible war with their rivals..

 

[Storm Force]

The j10 is a great war plane..much more capable than the thunders and equal to the block 52;falcons. You are right in this will have no sanctions threats unlike f16s.

I an surprised if you pull this off. I an not convinced you have the resources to get. Them.

You started talkiing about them when India inducted the first su30mki in 2005

Now ten years later India has over 200 mki in service and you guys never brought the j10...

Instead you built the thunder programme and you intend inducting more iof these. So I don't see j10.coming

 

[araz]

The j10 is a great war plane..much more capable than the thunders and equal to the block 52;falcons. You are right in this will have no sanctions threats unlike f16s.

I an surprised if you pull this off. I an not convinced you have the resources to get. Them.

You started talkiing about them when India inducted the first su30mki in 2005

Now ten years later India has over 200 mki in service and you guys never brought the j10...

Instead you built the thunder programme and you intend inducting more iof these. So I don't see j10.coming

If I were to take your statement at face value,I would ask you whether the better decision might not have been to induct more Bl.52s rather than establish infrastructure for a new platform which does matter to a cash strapped force. For bolstering numbers we can and will get more MLUed 16s and wait for J31. As to your extravagant "PAF cannot afford to have a 5th generation platform" lets wait and see.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Minimum deterrence is what the policy of PAF.. Remember its a defensive force..

Well it ll tends to be Financial situation when this defenseve may convert to offensive.

AI can not substitute human intelligence and its decision making capacity.. Hence fighter jets handled by pilots is gonna have a long stay.. F16, Jf17 and J10s are not only to have minimum defensive force, but also to replace the aging fleet of fighter jets in PAF.. the same way IAF or any other air-force in the world would do/is doing.. You cant have the old age A5 and Mirages for any further.. Transformation is a must and indeed part of any professional AF..

Rightly said AI can't replace Human till now but time is near and by that time only decition making to push the button may remains with human and most but not rest may be taken over by AI.
A5's are long gone and all 60 been replaced by JFT and now Mirage and F-7's will be replaced batchwise and infact are in progress so we may see 250 of odd JFT blocks in PAF in not too distant future.

About capability, let me give you one example, in PAF F86 was very capable aircraft, and had good operational history. But yet it has been replaced.. Why?? Because, its service life was expired. and you cant expect it to take on Mig 21, 23, 27, 29 and M2K. (IAF inventry in 80's) hence they procured F16's.. Which I must say are still a very potent aircraft.. Hence, current 4 gen aircraft under planning for PAF gonna have service for another 35-40 years and might have face Su30's MIg 29s M2Ks and rafales in (least) possible war with their rivals..

Indeed Right!

 

[I FLY HIGH]

If I were to take your statement at face value,I would ask you whether the better decision might not have been to induct more Bl.52s rather than establish infrastructure for a new platform which does matter to a cash strapped force. For bolstering numbers we can and will get more MLUed 16s and wait for J31. As to your extravagant "PAF cannot afford to have a 5th generation platform" lets wait and see.

well if we can negotiate aesa radar in the mlu package in some used f16s it would be fine as we already have the infrastructure and the skills to handle the planes rather than the fc20 /j10 .

 

[araz]

well if we can negotiate aesa radar in the mlu package in some used f16s it would be fine as we already have the infrastructure and the skills to handle the planes rather than the fc20 /j10 .

I have explained earlier that in the subcontinent theatre of war the necessity of an AESA is debatable due to constant coverage of the war theatre with Awacs. This is why we can afford to wait and bide our time. As to 16s with AESA----- forget it.
Araz

 

[Viper0011.]

I have explained earlier that in the subcontinent theatre of war the necessity of an AESA is debatable due to constant coverage of the war theatre with Awacs. This is why we can afford to wait and bide our time. As to 16s with AESA----- forget it. Araz

To be honest with you, I think your logic is flawed. In terms of your natural foe, India's development in the defense sector speficially, this logic is dangerous if used for the years to come. If we are talking about India before 1995, where Pakistan was considered to have "qualitative edge", that's a different story. But India in 2015 has become a regional power with plenty of experience and projects within defense, hi tech research and development.

If you are referring to just Early Warning, I agree, there is AWACS coverage on both ends and either one can see deep inside the other party's house. But in terms of combat, the logic could have serious implications. For example, an AESA lock is almost impossible to break with the technology that's out there (outside of the US and a few other Western countries that posses the right technology).

But at this time, with advancements in aviation and fighter jet computing integration, breaking or deceiving a Doppler lock is nothing very serious. You can fool the radar in many different ways, resulting in losing missiles to EMJ/AR Pulses, etc. But with AESA (the real ones), you can't really Jam a frequency considering that's the only frequency the enemy will use as a default like it is in current Doppler radars and SAM systems. Some of the AESA beams can be using the SAME spectrum that the enemy's plane uses, so its hard to detect and jam properly, meaning much better locking and hit to kill ratio through missiles.

IMO, the PAF messed up a LOT. The Hawkeye in the 80's was one example, the A-10's was another, the F-16's was the third one, the Mirage 2000 saga with France was another one. Now, in recent years, the J-10 is one, ignoring a twin turbine option (J-11, etc) is another one.

Pakistan should quickly acquire used -16's in numbers, with the ability to use AESA in them, along with upgrading the other ones. That would give you about 10 more years on the current technology set, which will change again starting 2020-2015. Or, Pakistan should get J-10's, allow the AESA tech to mature up and further upgrade the AESA when the Chinese upgrade it. You can't simply ignore the developments in your neighborhood hoping for the best.

 

[araz]

To be honest with you, I think your logic is flawed. In terms of your natural foe, India's development in the defense sector speficially, this logic is dangerous if used for the years to come. If we are talking about India before 1995, where Pakistan was considered to have "qualitative edge", that's a different story. But India in 2015 has become a regional power with plenty of experience and projects within defense, hi tech research and development.

If you are referring to just Early Warning, I agree, there is AWACS coverage on both ends and either one can see deep inside the other party's house. But in terms of combat, the logic could have serious implications. For example, an AESA lock is almost impossible to break with the technology that's out there (outside of the US and a few other Western countries that posses the right technology).

But at this time, with advancements in aviation and fighter jet computing integration, breaking or deceiving a Doppler lock is nothing very serious. You can fool the radar in many different ways, resulting in losing missiles to EMJ/AR Pulses, etc. But with AESA (the real ones), you can't really Jam a frequency considering that's the only frequency the enemy will use as a default like it is in current Doppler radars and SAM systems. Some of the AESA beams can be using the SAME spectrum that the enemy's plane uses, so its hard to detect and jam properly, meaning much better locking and hit to kill ratio through missiles.

IMO, the PAF messed up a LOT. The Hawkeye in the 80's was one example, the A-10's was another, the F-16's was the third one, the Mirage 2000 saga with France was another one. Now, in recent years, the J-10 is one, ignoring a twin turbine option (J-11, etc) is another one.

Pakistan should quickly acquire used -16's in numbers, with the ability to use AESA in them, along with upgrading the other ones. That would give you about 10 more years on the current technology set, which will change again starting 2020-2015. Or, Pakistan should get J-10's, allow the AESA tech to mature up and further upgrade the AESA when the Chinese upgrade it. You can't simply ignore the developments in your neighborhood hoping for the best.

I respect your opinion but the problem remains one of priorities. Do you increase the unit cost by 2_3 million per planefor a JFT or 5-7 million if you ask for AESA from US( that is if you get it at all ) or think of replacing your block obsolescent fleet. This is the dilemma facing PAF. We can all pontificate till the cows come home or think of that which is a pragmatic solution of your immediate problem. AESA will come but in due course not now. Unlike others I believe in having a pragmatic thought pattern. You can wish all you want but the fact is the money is not there. This was the reason for the response.
Araz

 

[Viper0011.]

I respect your opinion but the problem remains one of priorities. Do you increase the unit cost by 2_3 million per planefor a JFT or 5-7 million if you ask for AESA from US( that is if you get it at all ) or think of replacing your block obsolescent fleet. This is the dilemma facing PAF. We can all pontificate till the cows come home or think of that which is a pragmatic solution of your immediate problem. AESA will come but in due course not now. Unlike others I believe in having a pragmatic thought pattern. You can wish all you want but the fact is the money is not there. This was the reason for the response.
Araz

I agree with your assessment on whether to buy AESA or retire old jets. I am saying the same thing that buy what you can, from what's available for cheaper, like the J-10 and JFT Block II or III. Get numbers up, meaning 300-400 BVR-able jets ready for combat and 4th Gen (if possible). Then, a couple of years will pass by quickly and you can get the AESA upgrades. But at the least, your numbers will be up to a great defensive level so no one would venture out. And upgrades can happen later.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

I respect your opinion but the problem remains one of priorities. Do you increase the unit cost by 2_3 million per planefor a JFT or 5-7 million if you ask for AESA from US( that is if you get it at all ) or think of replacing your block obsolescent fleet. This is the dilemma facing PAF. We can all pontificate till the cows come home or think of that which is a pragmatic solution of your immediate problem. AESA will come but in due course not now. Unlike others I believe in having a pragmatic thought pattern. You can wish all you want but the fact is the money is not there. This was the reason for the response.
Araz

Paf has the resources thats why it is producing 100(bl1 and 2) thunders, if the Aesa radar is 5 million usd it is not that PAF cant afford it , even if you put 100 lame horses they wont win the race but one good horse will win . So instead of building numbers 110 , we must concentrate on quality first and quantity in the second phase . We cant ignore the current aqusition and capabilities of IAF. J10 is now a mature platform and is working as a work horse for PLaaf , equipped with aesa , irst and heavier pay load and extended range is the cutting edge . we have developed very very defensive doctrine . PAF must look into this and must get the cutting edge instead of numbers.

I respect your opinion but the problem remains one of priorities. Do you increase the unit cost by 2_3 million per planefor a JFT or 5-7 million if you ask for AESA from US( that is if you get it at all ) or think of replacing your block obsolescent fleet. This is the dilemma facing PAF. We can all pontificate till the cows come home or think of that which is a pragmatic solution of your immediate problem. AESA will come but in due course not now. Unlike others I believe in having a pragmatic thought pattern. You can wish all you want but the fact is the money is not there. This was the reason for the response.
Araz

Paf has the resources thats why it is producing 100(bl1 and 2) thunders, if the Aesa radar is 5 million usd it is not that PAF cant afford it , even if you put 100 lame horses they wont win the race but one good horse will win . So instead of building numbers 110 , we must concentrate on quality first and quantity in the second phase . We cant ignore the current aqusition and capabilities of IAF. J10 is now a mature platform and is working as a work horse for PLaaf , equipped with aesa , irst and heavier pay load and extended range is the cutting edge . we have developed very very defensive doctrine . PAF must look into this and must get the cutting edge instead of numbers.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

There is no debate about AESA. Awacs would be sitting ducks in the first 24 to 48 hours of the war----. AESA is an absolute must----. As the J 10 B is available with aesa---that is where Paf's focus needs t be. The electronics was the only thing that was holding the J 10's back over the blk 52----.

The supposed radar for the J 10 B has a 1000 TR modules---which gives it excellent capabilities in radar detection and resistance to jamming----that is one thing they would be facing.

Paf has the resources thats why it is producing 100(bl1 and 2) thunders, if the Aesa radar is 5 million usd it is not that PAF cant afford it , even if you put 100 lame horses they wont win the race but one good horse will win . So instead of building numbers 110 , we must concentrate on quality first and quantity in the second phase . We cant ignore the current aqusition and capabilities of IAF. J10 is now a mature platform and is working as a work horse for PLaaf , equipped with aesa , irst and heavier pay load and extended range is the cutting edge . we have developed very very defensive doctrine . PAF must look into this and must get the cutting edge instead of numbers.
.

Hi,

Agreed----instead of the 110 aircraft---I would rather have 80 of them with AESA.

I respect your opinion but the problem remains one of priorities. Do you increase the unit cost by 2_3 million per planefor a JFT or 5-7 million if you ask for AESA from US( that is if you get it at all ) or think of replacing your block obsolescent fleet. This is the dilemma facing PAF. We can all pontificate till the cows come home or think of that which is a pragmatic solution of your immediate problem. AESA will come but in due course not now. Unlike others I believe in having a pragmatic thought pattern. You can wish all you want but the fact is the money is not there. This was the reason for the response.
Araz

Sir,

This dilemma is the creation of PAF----. There is no pragmatic solution in times of war--. Paf has deceived the motherland for so many years and still has not changed---as it has become a habbit of to them to be deceitful---it has become a norm.

 

[Indus Falcon]

@MastanKhan @Windjammer What do you think about PAF getting SABR radar for the F16's?

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan @Windjammer What do you think about PAF getting SABR radar for the F16's?

Hi,

I very much doubt if it was available a while ago. But seeing the situation change in the middle east and Afghanistan ( isis ) Pakistan may get some items not available to it before.

The induction of SABR will be a force multipler---but Pakistan might have the J 10 B's with aesa before that.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi,

I very much doubt if it was available a while ago. But seeing the situation change in the middle east and Afghanistan ( isis ) Pakistan may get some items not available to it before.

The induction of SABR will be a force multipler---but Pakistan might have the J 10 B's with aesa before that.

I pray we get both.

 

[FuturePAF]

Minimum deterrence is what the policy of PAF.. Remember its a defensive force..

Hence, current 4 gen aircraft under planning for PAF gonna have service for another 35-40 years and might have face Su30's MIg 29s M2Ks and rafales in (least) possible war with their rivals..

If the policy of the PAF is defensive, then it is doomed to take potential knockout sucker punches before it can mount a counter attack

defense in the air is a losing strategy, the PAF tried it in 1971, to lure the IAF fighters to over the PAF bases to bring ground fire to bear on indian fighters while fighters engaged them in the air

this is in stark contrast to the israelis who in 1967 in a matter of four hours launched less than 200 planes in three waves and destroyed 450 arab (mostly egyptian) planes and nearly two dozen air fields, with a loss of only 19 planes

that is how you win, if the PAF thinks defensive, whos to say the indians don't launch a massive attack like this at 6 am and by noon, most of the PAF is destroyed, nearly all of the major air bases are destroyed, and ground and naval forces have no air cover to prevent being destroyed in the remaining part of the day

a war can start and be over in less than 24 hours, the PAF need to have an offensive or at least "offensive-defensive" mindset (and those who say detection is important are only partially right, because once detected how will you counter)

the su-30, mig-29k, m2k, rafales, and pak-fa are no push overs, the PAF must be given the equipment to quickly devastated indian air bases in such a dramatic way, that it would deter them from further aggression or at the very least slow down their military machine to where world opinion becomes quicksand in their cold start tank treads

Hi,

I very much doubt if it was available a while ago. But seeing the situation change in the middle east and Afghanistan ( isis ) Pakistan may get some items not available to it before.

The induction of SABR will be a force multipler---but Pakistan might have the J 10 B's with aesa before that.

sabr would be a great radar upgrade, but will the us let northrop grumann sell it when the stripped oliver hazard perry class frigate is what actually given

the only sign of an opening to this kind of sale is the offer of the billion dollar ah-1z helicopter
is the US sees pakistan has options, it maybe willing to sell

PAF should try to open up talks with european companies to get an aesa radar for the JF-17 (just to show the US, PAF has options) that might get a SABR sale offer