Pakistan Going For J-11?

[pakpower]

The J-11 isnt expensive at all I think the cost is less than that of the J-10. Infact the russians have no parts in the J-11B which is fully chinese. Only the engines are the issue and not only are the chinese developing their own al-31 copy but the russian export burea has already cleared exports for the engines to Pakistan incase Pakistan does go for it. It seems to my knowledge Pakistan is in advanced stages since such a clearance was given. Not only could it serve as a strong asset against carriers (a true carrier destroyer) but it could also serve as a aggressor fighter in training

What I am saying is that the naval aviation arm should adopt the J-11 not the air force (which has a totally different requirment for multirole fighters which could perform different roles and switch in wartime). The PN navy naturally needs a fighter that could cover the coast line very fast (J-11 is a very fast fighter), a fighter which has a long range radar to identify ships far away (once again J-11 surpasses most fighters in this), a fighter which could carry around 4 asm (this would pose a major threat not only to ships but also IN air craft carriers), and lastly the J-11's speed, manuverability, and ecm could defeat Ship launched sams with more ease than the mirage or JF-17

 

[Super Falcon]

i also feel J 11 is not going to come to pn but better option would be JH 7 it carries heavy armoury than SU 27 to penetrate ships hull

 

[Arsalan]

but even if we go ahed with J11 it wont be before 2015-2018 as by then we will bekept busy in JF17 and J10!
do you think it will have the same potential post 2018 times!
i mean, i agre that J11 is something better then anything we have and may be on par with J10 although they are od different calss! J11 is termed as a 4.5 generation fighter plane with intense modification over the conventional Su27 which claim to bring the plane to a different level, but the question is that will be they be good enogh in 2020z time as i dont see them becomming operational before that time, if the ever do!
also another point to remember is that by that time we may well be swatching a new version of J10C or may be a twin engine J10!! with our experience with FC20, wont it come up as a better option. well this is only my thought as nothing of the sort of twin engine J10 is in existence as yet!!

regards!

 

[TOPGUN]

There are way to many issues with j-11 regarding with the russians as we know now again if russia ease's up on us like we have been hearing there might be a chance to see this bird in the future when who knows? anyhow when it does come to us i doubt if it will go to PN more like to PAF!

 

[blain2]

There is no such a thing as a Su-27 on the world market any longer. Everything is a derivative of Su-30s including the Chinese J-11 (based on the capabilities enhancements and upgrades they have done to their baseline Su-27 Flanker airframe). As far as Pakistan going for such aircraft is concerned, one would have to see something a bit more concrete than talks and rumors about it. Suppliers are one issue, the second is how does something like a Su-30 fit into the overall force structure review of the PAF. As far as I know, Su-30 did not even figure into the recent force structure reviews conducted by the PAF, however this is not to say that PAF will not be interested in case the Russians were willing to talk. The challenge with the Chinese J-11 would be export restrictions. To many unknown variables at this time and I suspect this talk will also go the way of Qatari/UAE Mirage 2000 discussion.

 

[Arsalan]

There is no such a thing as a Su-27 on the world market any longer. Everything is a derivative of Su-30s including the Chinese J-11 (based on the capabilities enhancements and upgrades they have done to their baseline Su-27 Flanker airframe). As far as Pakistan going for such aircraft is concerned, one would have to see something a bit more concrete than talks and rumors about it. Suppliers are one issue, the second is how does something like a Su-30 fit into the overall force structure review of the PAF. As far as I know, Su-30 did not even figure into the recent force structure reviews conducted by the PAF, however this is not to say that PAF will not be interested in case the Russians were willing to talk. The challenge with the Chinese J-11 would be export restrictions. To many unknown variables at this time and I suspect this talk will also go the way of Qatari/UAE Mirage 2000 discussion.

agreed!
to add more, i guess when going for a new plaform after JF and FC the indian MRCA will also be a point of focus!
i mean if the indian decide to go for F16 then future procurement of F16 Blk52 will be a lost story and then the russian planes will come into play. it may be the J11 of something else as after losing a 10 billion contract they might not show much hesitation to sale there systems to us. on contrary, if IAF goes for a russian Mig35, PAF answer could be additional F16 or some westren planes!!
at the moment, both the countries seem to be playing the delay game and it is a matter of who losses patience first!
what do you think?

regards!

 

[satishkumarcsc]

agreed!
to add more, i guess when going for a new plaform after JF and FC the indian MRCA will also be a point of focus!
i mean if the indian decide to go for F16 then future procurement of F16 Blk52 will be a lost story and then the russian planes will come into play. it may be the J11 of something else as after losing a 10 billion contract they might not show much hesitation to sale there systems to us. on contrary, if IAF goes for a russian Mig35, PAF answer could be additional F16 or some westren planes!!
at the moment, both the countries seem to be playing the delay game and it is a matter of who losses patience first!
what do you think?

regards!

Nevermind...India will lose patience first because of the depleting force levels and the delay in the induction of LCA. The MiG 21s are underging retirements so expect the MRCA deal to come out soon. The F 18 has taken to the skies and I guess by 2012 the winner will be declared. Unless and ubtil some great miracle happens and DRDO is given to some big corporate LCA induction before 2012 is impossible.

 

[sancho]

agreed!
to add more, i guess when going for a new plaform after JF and FC the indian MRCA will also be a point of focus!
i mean if the indian decide to go for F16 then future procurement of F16 Blk52 will be a lost story and then the russian planes will come into play. it may be the J11 of something else as after losing a 10 billion contract they might not show much hesitation to sale there systems to us. on contrary, if IAF goes for a russian Mig35, PAF answer could be additional F16 or some westren planes!!
at the moment, both the countries seem to be playing the delay game and it is a matter of who losses patience first!
what do you think?

regards!

IMO you are missing a point, Russia will benefit way more through Pak Fa, MRTA co-development with India and Gorshkov, Akula 2 deal than through MMRCA!
To buy that carrier and sub will keep Russian navy alive, because they don't have the money for modernisations, or even maintenance of their ships. The co-development of the aircrafts will help Russia to modernise it's AF fleet which is more than important, because they could replace old Mig 29 and Su 27 like this! Only because we don't buy an upgraded version of Mig 29 won't let them sale Su 30 to PAF, because that would force problems to way more important developents.
You can bet on it that MMRCA winner will be a western aircraft and as it won't be Mig 35, it also won't be F16IN, simply because PAF already has the same fighter. The most likely fighters to win the competition are Rafale, F18SH and possibly EF!

 

[fatman17]

the J-11 is not in PAF plans for the near to med term (2010-2015) - it has no mention by any PAF top brass anywhere - its going to be F-16s Blk-52, F-16s Blk 30s (upgraded), JF-17s and FC-20s in this time-frame, which IMHO is a lot if the PAF manages all the time-lines!

U guys can discuss the J-11 all u want!

 

[Silent observer]

you are absolutely right fatman17.

moreover, our navy dont have the capability of keeping and maintaining fighter aircrafts. if there will be any procurment of this sort the rumor will start from the ariforce side not the navy side, isnt it? i may be wrong since i am a layman in this subject but all of a sudden procuring J11 for navy is going to be rather to much expensive, isnt it?

 

[fatman17]

you are absolutely right fatman17.

moreover, our navy dont have the capability of keeping and maintaining fighter aircrafts. if there will be any procurment of this sort the rumor will start from the ariforce side not the navy side, isnt it? i may be wrong since i am a layman in this subject but all of a sudden procuring J11 for navy is going to be rather to much expensive, isnt it?

PN has the smallest budget of the three services and that is all going for procuring subs and frigates!

 

[SBD-3]

wishful thinking
is all i can say,
for me the inventory will be something like
250 JF17
may even be increased if the upgradation proces stay on track, perhaps something like JF17b or JF17-II with massive upgrades (depending on the response of export market)
80+ Fc20z
some 60 odd F16z

for J11 deal never going to happen, my point actuall is that even if Rusians allow there sale PAF wont be going for twin engine planes until somwhere in 2016-2017 if they ever do. by that time there will be better options and J11 wont be a candidate for post 2018 procurements! that is what make me say no to J11z
i hope you understand!

regards!

Dear Arsalan
It is for Navy not AF that J-11 is being rumored and it makes sense as well because at current the mirages assigned to PN can only carry one AShM and with modern SAMs one AShM is easy to take down and further more the range of J-11 gives it better capability to engage IN at longer ranges with more AShMs increasing the possibility to hit also with IN inducting a large number of modern ACs in its ACC it becomes essential to have a potent jet to take on any threat posed by these ACs.Also as IN arihant is also in notes now to engage any possible strike by it these J-11 will be more useful than mirages the risk of long range sea petrol will also be minimized as J-11 is a twin engine fighter and finally PAF's doctrine prohibits Twin engines not PN's if it decides to go ahead with J-11 because of the few benefits offered by it as i discussed.Furthermore, as soon as China is able to mature its WS-10(A) PN will be in a good position to acquire it. Russia will not be in a position to object this deal due to
1) All components will be Chinese leaving no room for Russia to impact the deal
2) Russia knows that such a deal would not be possible with Russia because of Indian opposition so its always no gain game for Russia as Pakistan is not a Russian market.
3) India will not be able to object and influence because of no Russian connection in the deal like they did in Thunder deal due to Russian engine
so as soon as WS-10(A) matures, I see a very good option for PN and PAF as well on need bases

 

[SBD-3]

you are absolutely right fatman17.

moreover, our navy dont have the capability of keeping and maintaining fighter aircrafts. if there will be any procurment of this sort the rumor will start from the ariforce side not the navy side, isnt it? i may be wrong since i am a layman in this subject but all of a sudden procuring J11 for navy is going to be rather to much expensive, isnt it?

it is no excuse.Every journey starts with the first step.I mean That should also suggest IAF should not go with MMRCA and should select Mig-35 because they dont have the experience with american ACs. If it is a need for future why not now

 

[SBD-3]

i also feel J 11 is not going to come to pn but better option would be JH 7 it carries heavy armoury than SU 27 to penetrate ships hull

Initially i thought like this as well.But we must remember that its not only Ships we are going to deal with. INAF will also have to be engaged and if they are able to house SHs on their ACC then J-11 becomes necessary as it also has better A2A performance as compared to JH-7A which is more a precision strike fighter rather than true multi role which can take on any modern fighter in air

 

[Silent observer]

@Husnain 0099
i am not against PN buying J11 or JH7. my point, as mentioned by Fatman17 as well, was money, which we do not have at the moment and especially with the procurement and other projects (JF17, frigates, subs, J10 may be etc) going on, it seems that getting new type of aircraft with twin engines is not an option open for us right now. but if PN somehow can opt for procuremnet of J11 or JH7 right now it is the best choice but otherwise we can hope for as early as possibe.

regards

sincerely