Pakistan Failed state?

[genmirajborgza786]

Pakistan is Unstable i agree , However its definitely not a Failed State

 

[Tiger Genie]

I think the reason Pakistan is considered a failure so far is a combination of things.

Such as failure of the so called 'country for muslims' goal - there are more muslims from erstwhile pre-independence India outside of Pakistan than inside Pakistan; there are more muslims killed by muslims in Pakistan than in India or elsewhere.

Such as Pakistan having not developed a governance system of democratic institutions, even though it was its goal, indicated by its having been under military gunpoint coups for more than half its life, not to mention the current state of elected government bowing all powers to the general.

Such as Pakistan having failed in its foreign policies so utterly that terrorist proxy wars are the state means to prosecutre any foreign policy.

We have seen the society in Pakistan decimated with religious extremism and rigged education that portend generations of misinformed uneducated masses.

We have also seen the complete dependency on foreign capital repeatedly bringing the economy to its heels and threats of default every other year - count how many loans have been rescheduled, how many loans have had to be 'forgiven', how many times ministers have had to fly to Riyadh, DC and Beijing for last minute dole!

Summary, Pakistan's political system, educational system, economy and social justice have so far been utter and abject failures.

When I talk to Pakistani amigos here and ask for accomplishments they usually point to the following:

1) We have nukes
2) We managed to not breakup any further after 1971
3) We make modern fighter jet
4) We drove Soviet Russia out of Afghanistan

The nukes were stolen technology via A.Q.Khan. The fighter jet is China sharing knowhow. The Russian invasion was thwarted by NATO using Pakistan local muscle (because it is local and cheap - happened to be neighbors).

Be realistic people.

 

[Spectre]

@Shamain Nice to see you. You made some great points. I opened this thread to destroy the title by giving insight to various aspects of Pakistan. Of course thanks to Shan this thread has now gone to the point of no recovery so I won't bother with No.2 etc.

Notwithstanding the self serving claims of 'failed state' Pakistan is no where near a 'failed state'. The definition itself is subjective however the state as a structure is intact. Absolute sanction in the form of 600,000 man military is intact and other state structures are operating.

The example of BISP income support shows this because this can only happen within a stable structure. Over $1 billion is paid out annually to 40 million poor across the length and breadth of the country. This itself blows any such notions of 'failed state' because it shows that the state can still institute systems to take care of it's millions of vulnerable.

In a failed state those millions would being killed or starving. I know for a fact that along the system some money is being lost or used wrongly. There are probably some claimants who do not deserve it. However these type of schemes in fact involve resource redistribution. The rich, the well connected already milch the state by getting their children jobs in plum positions of government or juicy contracts.

When the poor have no stake in the state that is exactly when a state begins to 'fail' because that group feels left out and has no interest in perpetuating a order that shows no sympathy or concern. How do you know you belong to a family? You know because when you are in trouble they help you. They care for you and show concern. That is what binds you to your family.

A state can have all the guns and tanks but if it does not enjoy the support of loyalty of the citizens it will remain weak and liable to collapse at the slightest provocation. BISP shows to the ordinary poor that they belong to a country that cares. That little BISP card is proof of that we the collective called Pakistan care for our weak.

That I salute. I take pride in that my poor countrymen are recieving some money that reminds them of our collective concern for their welfare. In shor Pakistan Zindanad is just a slogan but millions of transactions are made on those BISP debit cards and the Rs1,500 is recieved in the hand of poor.

As the poor claimant walks away that is expression of "Pakistan Zindabad". I for one take enormous pride in that. BISP card shows we the collective called "Pakistan" care for our weak and poor.

Edit: BISP more than our nuclear weapons, our much vaunted F-16s, Thunder Jets, our ballistic or cruise missiles, our elite SSG prove that Pakistan is strong and functioning because it shows it cares for it's weak. In fact this shows we as a society are strong.

I am not arguing anything about Pakistan being a failed state. I honestly think it's not in-fact no state is a failure as long as its population takes pride in belonging to that state.

That said i was curious about BISP and its comparison to its counterpart in India MNERGA.

In BISP Rs 1500 is provided to poor unconditionally. In MNERGA INR Rs 174 or more is paid for a days work to poor people. Anyone above 18 years of age is eligible of MNERGA.

Among economists MNERGA is much maligned as its held responsible for much of our countries problems.

1. Rising Labor Cost - It resulted in increasing labor cost as employers had to pay their workers a higher amount than INR 174. Today avg wage of daily worker is Rs 200 which works out to be Rs 6000 a month. This is resulted in rising cost of production and construction and has hampered our countries competitiveness

2. Non Productivity - Work done by MNERGA workers is mostly digging ditches and other sundry repair and construction work in their villages which people point out have no lasting value.

3. Major Share of Govt revenues ~ 15 Billion USD with an annual increase of 1.5 Billion USD is diverted towards MNERGA, if you add our our Food Security Bill then total amount of welfare spending on these two schemes comes out to be 30 Billion USD per year.

4. Lack of funds for Infrastructure and Development - With 30 Billion USD bill for only two of the welfare schemes (there are many others like heath, education, women empowerment, skill development etc) funds necessary for development of our ageing infrastructure is just not there which in turn results in less foreign investment in India and effects our overall economy and GDP.

Due to these reasons present govt is in an dilemma over what to do about these populist welfare schemes which are sapping our resources which could be better invested somewhere else

 

[Echo_419]

Benazir support program is nothing but an organized effort to turn people into baggers. There is a Chinese proverb that translates something like: dont give them fish, teach them to catch fish. With this 'Benazir' crap program, we are only creating an army of nikammey and haram khour and in return we are asking for votes. Compared to that, Dr Amjad Saqib's NGO 'Akhuwat' is doing a great job by distributing interest-free loans and helping people to start their own businesses. Over 95% loans are returned back and many who benefited from those loans initially are now donors of 'Akhuwat', subhanAllah.

Exactly developing countries like India & Pakistan should not make thier people Hadd-Haramm

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I think the reason Pakistan is considered a failure so far is a combination of things.

Such as failure of the so called 'country for muslims' goal - there are more muslims from erstwhile pre-independence India outside of Pakistan than inside Pakistan; there are more muslims killed by muslims in Pakistan than in India or elsewhere.

Such as Pakistan having not developed a governance system of democratic institutions, even though it was its goal, indicated by its having been under military gunpoint coups for more than half its life, not to mention the current state of elected government bowing all powers to the general.

Such as Pakistan having failed in its foreign policies so utterly that terrorist proxy wars are the state means to prosecutre any foreign policy.

We have seen the society in Pakistan decimated with religious extremism and rigged education that portend generations of misinformed uneducated masses.

We have also seen the complete dependency on foreign capital repeatedly bringing the economy to its heels and threats of default every other year - count how many loans have been rescheduled, how many loans have had to be 'forgiven', how many times ministers have had to fly to Riyadh, DC and Beijing for last minute dole!

Summary, Pakistan's political system, educational system, economy and social justice have so far been utter and abject failures.

Utter rubbish. How well something is doing is seen not how it is done but what the final result is on the ground or to use that favourite term of South Asians "ground realities". The average person in Pakistan is as well off or as bad off as a Indian - I would argue better but I don't want to get side tracked. So if the average citizen in Pakistan is no worse off than in India clearly the system depite all the negative publicity is functioning as well as any other in South Asia. Proof of the pudding is in eating.

Does not matter how it was made ...

Exactly developing countries like India & Pakistan should not make thier people Hadd-Haramm

This is what the rich say to keep their monopoly on the state. They would rather not share the pie with the poor. It is okay for them to use their connections to get plum jobs in government, juicy contracts or embezzle state funds as long as the poor are kept out of the feeding party. By doing so you give the poor a stake in the system thereby helping to create long term stability.

If you don't do this the poor will pick up the gun instead ... Hint - Maoists?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The flow of capital from abroad into Pakistan could have been done through our companies having station in abroad if government had managed to develop industries in Pakistan. And that was one time Investment. How many MNC's we have abroad which could have tripled the flow of capital into Pakistan? We would have worked for our companies and in collaboration or JVC with foreign firm for ToT. But there is lack of common sense.

We are more than 60% youth and Government is NOT utilizing this, This is a total FAILURE!!

Your'e still jumping around and avoiding answering the question, so, again, "do you apply that argument consistently and at what point does the flow of human capital out of a country pose an issue and why? Is said flow offset by the inflow of human capital from other States?"

Some people here were making India bench mark. The Indians have initiated with their industrial development to give opportunities to their youth. But where we are after one year?

Not a benchmark, but a reference point to make sense of various data points - as pointed out, Pakistan ranks higher than India in the 'happiness index', which would suggest that relative to Pakistan, India is failing her citizens and failing as a state.

Coming up policies like BISP, is like putting shadow over the mistakes of Past. Who is responsible for the current situation where now government needs to feed Millions. This is if not failure then what is it?

The US has over 46 million people under the poverty line and on food stamps, the point being that most large countries suffer from this 'failure of the State'.

Can these countries do better? Should they do better? Of course - no one in their right mind is arguing that any level of poverty is acceptable and that the governments should not try to address such issues. The point behind the discussion on the BISP, however, is that the GoP is making an effort (from a policy perspective at least) to provide support to vulnerable sections of society, as is the case in many developed countries. To not have policies like the BISP in place to support vulnerable sections of society would be an even bigger failure.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Utter rubbish. How well something is doing is seen not how it is done but what the final result is on the ground or to use that favourite term of South Asians "ground realities". The average person is as well off or as bad off as a Indian - I would argue better but I don'ty want to get side tracked. So if the average citizen in Pakistan is no worse off than in India clearly the system depite all thenegative publicity is functioning as well as any other in South Asia.Proof of the pudding is in eating.

Does not mattewr how it was made ...

Oh I agree it is results that matter. The 'ground reality' as you term it is all that I pointed out and will repeat:

1) how many muslims killed in Pakistan by muslims - take every year for past 5 years if you like.
2) how much loans have had to be rescheduled because you couldn't repay? now, last year, year before
3) how many minorities have been killed/rendered destitute? now, last year, year before

now, last year, year before is RESULT.

You have failed economics, politics, education and social justice.

 

[syedali73]

Exactly developing countries like India & Pakistan should not make thier people Hadd-Haramm

You see such assistance is indeed provided in lots of countries but not to make the people huddharam but to take them through tough times while they are searching for new jobs. We on the other hand are using this money, tax payer's money, to literally bribe these people and they are so royally screwed up that they do return the favor by casting votes in favor of the government. Benazir support program, what the hell is this? this money came from her personal account or her haramzadey husband Zardari's account? this is tax payer's money. And look how cheap Pakistanis sell themselves up; this scheme provides some 2,500 rupees per family per month and yet those who receive this meager alm sell their votes. We do not like to hear that we are failed country but as Oscar said, Pakistanis are indeed failed people.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh I agree it is results that matter. The 'ground reality' as you term it is all that I pointed out and will repeat:

1) how many muslims killed in Pakistan by muslims - take every year for past 5 years if you like.
2) how much loans have had to be rescheduled because you couldn't repay? now, last year, year before
3) how many minorities have been killed/rendered destitute? now, last year, year before

now, last year, year before is RESULT.

You have failed economics, politics, education and social justice.

And yet, despite all the negative factors you mentioned, Pakistanis are 'happier' than Indians, which speaks volumes about the level of failure of the Indian State.

 

[VCheng]

When I talk to Pakistani amigos here and ask for accomplishments they usually point to the following:

1) We have nukes
2) We managed to not breakup any further after 1971
3) We make modern fighter jet
4) We drove Soviet Russia out of Afghanistan

The nukes were stolen technology via A.Q.Khan. The fighter jet is China sharing knowhow. The Russian invasion was thwarted by NATO using Pakistan local muscle (because it is local and cheap - happened to be neighbors).

Be realistic people.

Those four facts are indeed true as stated despite your explanations, hence real.

 

[Tiger Genie]

And yet, despite all the negative factors you mentioned, Pakistanis are 'happier' than Indians, which speaks volumes about the level of failure of the Indian State.

The only volume it speaks of is the blissful ignorance of Pakistanis. For example, if you as a Pakistani consider a Pakistani life is cheap and low value, then you wouldn't mind if a thousand of those get killed by other Pakisanis! Doesn't make it right, does it?

Those four facts are indeed true as stated despite your explanations, hence real.

You just proved @AgNoStiC MuSliM 's point that Pakistanis are happier becaue their standards are lower!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Oh I agree it is results that matter. The 'ground reality' as you term it is all that I pointed out and will repeat:

1) how many muslims killed in Pakistan by muslims - take every year for past 5 years if you like.
2) how much loans have had to be rescheduled because you couldn't repay? now, last year, year before
3) how many minorities have been killed/rendered destitute? now, last year, year before

now, last year, year before is RESULT.

You have failed economics, politics, education and social justice.

The average Pakistani citizen is as well fed if not better then a Indian so there goes your economic argument. In our part of the world economics is simple - feeding people. Thus Pakistan does as well if not better. That settles the argument about economics. No point in having a minister of economics bragging and people are starving. Proof of pudding is in eating .....?

The point about "Muslims" killed is invalid. We have Pakistani's being killed. This I accept we have a problem. We in fact have a war on terror being fought on our western border and it's effects have spilled over into Pakistan. Thus that has to be seen in context of that. This is similar to the Maoist Insurgency going on in India.

Of course the differance being is our 'insurgents' not only kill our poor but also like to tangle with a superpower which gives them prime time coverage on western media thus our issues echo in Washington, London and Paris. Maoist attacks in India hardly make it to the back pages.

 

[Norwegian]

Over 95% loans are returned back and many who benefited from those loans initially are now donors of 'Akhuwat', subhanAllah.

Mircofinance and Microcredit of Grameen Bank founder and Nobel Prize winner Muhammad Yunus operates on similar terms:
Grameen Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[VCheng]

You just proved @AgNoStiC MuSliM 's point that Pakistanis are happier becaue their standards are lower!

Happiness is the natural result of reality exceeding expectations, so what is the problem here?

 

[Tiger Genie]

@Atanz - you are reduce economics to simply feeding a few more calories. Is that well being? You will completely ignore real economics well being, social justice, right to live etc? You are also proving how low standards you guys have been driven to in 60 years!

Happiness is the natural result of reality exceeding expectations, so what is the problem here?

You know, you are wise and I agree with that argument. Now tell me how you plan to turn the next generation to be philosopher like you?