Pakistan Failed state?

[Adecypher]

This topic seems to be a perennial favorite on PDF for some reason:

Pakistan a failed state?

Pakistan not a ‘failed’ state: Mani Shankar

Why Pakistan is not a failed state

Why Pakistan is not a failed state?

Why Pakistan is not a failed state?

And its about time it should be taken off from that list.

 

[Tiger Genie]

I understood your point, which is why I provided the excerpt from paper that compiled the 'Happiness Index'. My assumption was that you didn't know the context in which I made that remark. I wasn't referring to a PEW poll that asked people in various countries 'how they feel', which would line up with your comment about perceptions and how they can be skewed depending on the reference point (for example, diminishing levels of violence in one year compared to the previous year, even though the current levels of violence may be significantly higher than the global average).


Perhaps you should let other Pakistanis read my actual comments instead of distorting them and presenting them in the manner that you have - such intellectual dishonesty certainly can't contribute to a healthy and happy mind.

Let me clarify it further - what I described is human nature, not something unique to Pakistan. People may have a short term emotional reaction to distant events, but unless there is a tangible direct impact, or the threat of a tangible direct impact, from such events, most people will forget and/or not allow said events to impact their lives and their perceptions of life.

Instead of such bitterness why not just admit you said something wrong or it came out wrong? Sometimes the words one uses may not accurately depict what they meant to say. When I point that out, normal

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

when so many times such topics come that means the Political system has failed

just give 24 hours water and power supply this will add few stars.

 

[Shamain]

@Shamain Nice to see you. You made some great points. I opened this thread to destroy the title by giving insight to various aspects of Pakistan. Of course thanks to Shan this thread has now gone to the point of no recovery so I won't bother with No.2 etc.

Notwithstanding the self serving claims of 'failed state' Pakistan is no where near a 'failed state'. The definition itself is subjective however the state as a structure is intact. Absolute sanction in the form of 600,000 man military is intact and other state structures are operating.

The example of BISP income support shows this because this can only happen within a stable structure. Over $1 billion is paid out annually to 40 million poor across the length and breadth of the country. This itself blows any such notions of 'failed state' because it shows that the state can still institute systems to take care of it's millions of vulnerable.

In a failed state those millions would being killed or starving. I know for a fact that along the system some money is being lost or used wrongly. There are probably some claimants who do not deserve it. However these type of schemes in fact involve resource redistribution. The rich, the well connected already milch the state by getting their children jobs in plum positions of government or juicy contracts.

When the poor have no stake in the state that is exactly when a state begins to 'fail' because that group feels left out and has no interest in perpetuating a order that shows no sympathy or concern. How do you know you belong to a family? You know because when you are in trouble they help you. They care for you and show concern. That is what binds you to your family.

A state can have all the guns and tanks but if it does not enjoy the support of loyalty of the citizens it will remain weak and liable to collapse at the slightest provocation. BISP shows to the ordinary poor that they belong to a country that cares. That little BISP card is proof of that we the collective called Pakistan care for our weak.

That I salute. I take pride in that my poor countrymen are recieving some money that reminds them of our collective concern for their welfare. In short Pakistan Zindanad is not just a slogan. Millions of transactions are made on those BISP debit cards and the Rs1,500 is recieved in the hand of poor.

As the poor claimant walks away that is expression of "Pakistan Zindabad". I for one take enormous pride in that. BISP debit card is manifestation of our duty to our weak and poor. That makes us great.

Edit: BISP more than our nuclear weapons, our much vaunted F-16s, Thunder Jets, our ballistic or cruise missiles, our elite SSG prove that Pakistan is strong and functioning because it shows it cares for it's weak. In fact this shows we as a society are strong.

Sorry for late reply, it was a long post so ihad thought iwill read it carefully. And then the site was down too.

Well i get the bottom line of ur message and post and that makes sense. But the affiliation of the whole program with ppp or using benazirs name is all for political reasons. See no one in ppp or anywhere else is interested in reviving her name cuz she never gave any good to the nation. And from what ihave heard, dont know the autheticity of this and tho hearsay it is iwill still share, that before the lady had died , zardari and her relationship was on rocks. Since, her death its only him who is constantly using and milking her name. So clearly here the scheme has this man and ppp party involved.

See i am in favor of such welfare programs but when done in depoliticized way, and the aim is to empower people ànd not to foster dependency. Like besides financial support , offering ppl vocational skills training or academic scholarships and micro debts in setting up businesses and help in securing jobs. So the aim is to empowrr ppl .help them find their own footing in the society.

I will kind of go along syedali73's views. Except for the words where he said pakistanis are failed ppl , tho he is partially right. But i agree with his views cuz i have heard abt ppl selling their votes for meager favors and then regretting that later.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Sorry for late reply, it was a long post so ihad thought iwill read it carefully. And then the site was down too.

Well i get the bottom line of ur message and post and that makes sense. But the affiliation of the whole program with ppp or using benazirs name is all for political reasons. See no one in ppp or anywhere else is interested in reviving her name cuz she never gave any good to the nation. And from what ihave heard, dont know the autheticity of this and tho hearsay it is iwill still share, that before the lady had died , zardari and her relationship was on rocks. Since, her death its only him who is constantly using and milking her name. So clearly here the scheme has this man and ppp party involved.

See i am in favor of such welfare programs but when done in depoliticized way, and the aim is to empower people ànd not to foster dependency. Like besides financial support , offering ppl vocational skills training or academic scholarships and micro debts in setting up businesses and help in securing jobs. So the aim is to empowrr ppl .help them find their own footing in the society.

I will kind of go along syedali73's views. Except for the words where he said pakistanis are failed ppl , tho he is partially right. But i agree with his views cuz i have heard abt ppl selling their votes for meager favors and then regretting that later.

Shamain this is Pakistan that we are talking about therefore any such project launched under any government would suffer from being partly biased and political. If this was done under PML-N or PTI the same charges would be laid. We are not going to get apolotical culture in Pakistan anytime soon. Even a a mature democracy like UK we hear regular accusations of 'cronyism' and political bias. Toyota decided to open a plant in UK and eventually after lot of negotiation with DTI ( Dept. Trade and Industry ) Toyota chose to set up the plant in UK in a area called Burnaston. It also so happened that the minister of DTI a lady called Edwina Currie also happened to be the MP for Burnaston. I mean this could have been a cooincidence but all the papers wre screaming about Ms Currie having used her influence to get the plant set in her constituency. That might have been the case but at least UK won because Toyota were thinking of Germany, France or Spain as alternatives. So it is hard to get beyond these accusations anywhere let alone a immature democracy like Pakistan.

Now on the issue of dependancy and or votes being bought. The Pakistan state is regarded by the ruling class as a huge money making machine. They plunder it, they use it to secure all sort of advantages. The well connected get jobs not because they deserve it but because of connections. They all rape the state. They don't use their offices to do good but regard these posts as money making franchise. I know because although I have grown up abroad but I do back to Pakistan on short trips and I have family there.

I am the only socialist amongst my family. They all laugh at me. However all of them use their government jobs to line their pockets. They don't even hide it. My uncle is in department ( Customs ) and makes sure sons get in department to continue minting money. Same with PWD. So while all these well connected are using their links to mint money why is it so terrible that a few Rs go into the hands of the poor. All of sudden everybody complains about dependancy?

Look at PIA. This airline is definition of 'dependancy'. 1,000s of employees are on the payroll doing what? Providing terrible service and lazing about. PIA has 780 employees per one aircraft. That is one of the highest figures in the world. Turkish Airline in comparison has 81 employees per plane. Turkish airline has consistantly come out as the best airline in Europe. PIA on the other hand recieved Rs.33billion to bail it out.

Now think about this. PIA has almost ten times more workers ( which raises the question what exactly do they do other than collect their fat salaries ) yet PIA has terrible service. Trust me I know. The crew get caught regularly smuggling stuff into UK or Captain got removed from plane because he was drunk. Yet these people all collect their juicy salaries and retain their jobs ( which in this case means doing next to nothing. It is like 10 people to make a cup of tea and all say they are busy working ) and then the final clincher is the airline loses money.

Now the very type of people who jump up at the mention payment to the poor and start screaming about dependancy etc should also scream about tax payers money being used to sustain thousands of lazy PIa people. After all the same law of naturel fitness and mertitocracy they preach should be applied here. In UK PIA would have gone bankrupt. Why should the state keep these PIA employees in their crusty positions at the expanse of the tax payer? Of course nobody complains here because these people are well connected. Just to give you a idea Rs33 billion is used every year to bail out PIA and it's lazy workers who just use this airline as their 'Benezir Income Support Airline". The BISP costs about Rs 100 billion. So this is almost 1/3 of that cost.

Of course in reality we have KESC, KPT, PR, Pak Steel, PTV and all other departments that are used to keep thousands of people on the payroll doing next to nothing. I went to a family memeber who was PWD Exon, his office had three guys standing outside stroking their 'taches, four more swotting flies inside the office. There was gang of 200 workers outside idling and smoking. Yet the road was in shambolic condition. My back almost broke. In UK 100 workers will be seen building entire 8 lane motorways working 12 hour shifts day and night.

So please people wherever I went in Pakistan I saw lazy, unkempt officials with total lack of any work ethic other then lining their pockets at the expense of the government. If a few Rs goes into the hand of poor widow in some remote village that might feed her children is in my view a good thing. Yet suddenly people start crying 'dependancy'.

Another thing in societies which actively redistribute money, that is transfer money from the rich to the poor by using tax or welfare systems create more equitable culture. This translates into peace and harmony. Countries like Norway, Sweden and even UK are trend setters in this regard. The USA of course follows the hardline capitalist thinking and have you seen the crime rate there? Guns anmd shooting everyday.

I have had the privilage of being born in a wealthy family but always in my heart I will stand by the poorest. when I was in Pakistan it annoyed me how people treated the poor. When I got there everybody insisted I let the servant take the bags out. I refused. I insisted I am going to take them inside. I made my own tea. I cleaned my own room. Those who complain about dependancy have no problem in employing servants to make their tea.

Those servants should be out there doing real jobs like building the coun try up. building roads, houses, hospitals, bridges, pave ments, schools like China is doing. Instead the system in Pakistan has been carved to serve the interests of the eliye and uses religion to cover up plunder, abuse and naked greed.

As regards the name of the project. Benezir is dead. I assure you I never supported PPP. I am not from Sindh. However because she was female, Taliban murdered her I for one have no problem with the project being called BISP. Like i said she is dead and with it went her politics. Forget and forgive .


We have to ask what kind of society we want. The Norwegians probably have one of the mosr equitable societies with fairer distribution of cpaital than most countries in the world. Maybe that is why they are so peacefull. Empty stomachs and abuse will create instability and no number of guns will create peace. go ask the Americans that.


Herald Exclusive: Plane truths - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


Look at the Nordic system of policing which is only possible because of a very equitable society at peace with itself as opposed to USA. The Nordic countries have very aggresive income distribution sysyems as opposed to the capitalist USA with attitudes like " we don't want to give money to make people dependants ".

 

[Tiger Genie]

Shamain this is Pakistan that we are talking about therefore any such project launched under any government would suffer from being partly biased and political. If this was done under PML-N or PTI the same charges would be laid. We are not going to get apolotical culture in Pakistan anytime soon. Even a a mature democracy like UK we hear regular accusations of 'cronyism' and political bias. Toyota decided to open a plant in UK and eventually after lot of negotiation with DTI ( Dept. Trade and Industry ) Toyota chose to set up the plant in UK in a area called Burnaston. It also so happened that the minister of DTI a lady called Edwina Currie also happened to be the MP for Burnaston. I mean this could have been a cooincidence but all the papers wre screaming about Ms Currie having used her influence to get the plant set in her constituency. That might have been the case but at least UK won because Toyota were thinking of Germany, France or Spain as alternatives. So it is hard to get beyond these accusations anywhere let alone a immature democracy like Pakistan.

Now on the issue of dependancy and or votes being bought. The Pakistan state is regarded by the ruling class as a huge money making machine. They plunder it, they use it to secure all sort of advantages. The well connected get jobs not because they deserve it but because of connections. They all rape the state. They don't use their offices to do good but regard these posts as money making franchise. I know because although I have grown up abroad but I do back to Pakistan on short trips and I have family there.

I am the only socialist amongst my family. They all laugh at me. However all of them use their government jobs to line their pockets. They don't even hide it. My uncle is in department ( Customs ) and makes sure sons get in department to continue minting money. Same with PWD. So while all these well connected are using their links to mint money why is it so terrible that a few Rs go into the hands of the poor. All of sudden everybody complains about dependancy?

Look at PIA. This airline is definition of 'dependancy'. 1,000s of employees are on the payroll doing what? Providing terrible service and lazing about. PIA has 780 employees per one aircraft. That is one of the highest figures in the world. Turkish Airline in comparison has 81 employees per plane. Turkish airline has consistantly come out as the best airline in Europe. PIA on the other hand recieved Rs.33billion to bail it out.

Now think about this. PIA has almost ten times more workers ( which raises the question what exactly do they do other than collect their fat salaries ) yet PIA has terrible service. Trust me I know. The crew get caught regularly smuggling stuff into UK or Captain got removed from plane because he was drunk. Yet these people all collect their juicy salaries and retain their jobs ( which in this case means doing next to nothing. It is like 10 people to make a cup of tea and all say they are busy working ) and then the final clincher is the airline loses money.

Now the very type of people who jump up at the mention payment to the poor and start screaming about dependancy etc should also scream about tax payers money being used to sustain thousands of lazy PIa people. After all the same law of naturel fitness and mertitocracy they preach should be applied here. In UK PIA would have gone bankrupt. Why should the state keep these PIA employees in their crusty positions at the expanse of the tax payer? Of course nobody complains here because these people are well connected. Just to give you a idea Rs33 billion is used every year to bail out PIA and it's lazy workers who just use this airline as their 'Benezir Income Support Airline". The BISP costs about Rs 100 billion. So this is almost 1/3 of that cost.

Of course in reality we have KESC, KPT, PR, Pak Steel, PTV and all other departments that are used to keep thousands of people on the payroll doing next to nothing. I went to a family memeber who was PWD Exon, his office had three guys standing outside stroking their 'taches, four more swotting flies inside the office. There was gang of 200 workers outside idling and smoking. Yet the road was in shambolic condition. My back almost broke. In UK 100 workers will be seen building entire 8 lane motorways working 12 hour shifts day and night.

So please people wherever I went in Pakistan I saw lazy, unkempt officials with total lack of any work ethic other then lining their pockets at the expense of the government. If a few Rs goes into the hand of poor widow in some remote village that might feed her children is in my view a good thing. Yet suddenly people start crying 'dependancy'.

Another thing in societies which actively redistribute money, that is transfer money from the rich to the poor by using tax or welfare systems create more equitable culture. This translates into peace and harmony. Countries like Norway, Sweden and even UK are trend setters in this regard. The USA of course follows the hardline capitalist thinking and have you seen the crime rate there? Guns anmd shooting everyday.

I have had the privilage of being born in a wealthy family but always in my heart I will stand by the poorest. when I was in Pakistan it annoyed me how people treated the poor. When I got there everybody insisted I let the servant take the bags out. I refused. I insisted I am going to take them inside. I made my own tea. I cleaned my own room. Those who complain about dependancy have no problem in employing servants to make their tea.

Those servants should be out there doing real jobs like building the coun try up. building roads, houses, hospitals, bridges, pave ments, schools like China is doing. Instead the system in Pakistan has been carved to serve the interests of the eliye and uses religion to cover up plunder, abuse and naked greed.

As regards the name of the project. Benezir is dead. I assure you I never supported PPP. I am not from Sindh. However because she was female, Taliban murdered her I for one have no problem with the project being called BISP. Like i said she is dead and with it went her politics. Forget and forgive .


We have to ask what kind of society we want. The Norwegians probably have one of the mosr equitable societies with fairer distribution of cpaital than most countries in the world. Maybe that is why they are so peacefull. Empty stomachs and abuse will create instability and no number of guns will create peace. go ask the Americans that.


Herald Exclusive: Plane truths - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


Look at the Nordic system of policing which is only possible because of a very equitable society at peace with itself as opposed to USA. The Nordic countries have very aggresive income distribution sysyems as opposed to the capitalist USA with attitudes like " we don't want to give money to make people dependants ".

@Atanz - compliments on a most unpretentious post. As I read the first part - about lazy looters as government department staff and employees of state enterprises, I could simply change references to Pakistan to India , and perhaps the factor 10 to factor 50. The corruption, the disregard for honest day's work, the dependency on nepotism, utter lack of quality...all exactly the same if not worse. Such then is Pakistan, such then is India.

The part about Nordic countries is Ofcourse not balanced. The entire population of those countries together is probably less than that of Texas. The money they dole out to citizenry as welfare comes largely from oil mining - not to run down their industry at all, but the money is from oil rights. Like Alaska where again the state pays the people to live there, because they have oil aplenty. The Nordics also have a rather freakish immigration policy - the unsaid rule being to maintain almost a monolithic ethnicity. My point being let's not compare apples and furniture.

I'm curious at what threshold you draw the line between welfare and the sense of entitlement that you yourself point out amongst the lazy bums. Doesn't one lead to the other? Mind you I am not talking about aid to the needy who cannot work for physical or mental ailments or for lack of opportunities.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Atanz - compliments on a most unpretentious post. As I read the first part - about lazy looters as government department staff and employees of state enterprises, I could simply change references to Pakistan to India , and perhaps the factor 10 to factor 50. The corruption, the disregard for honest day's work, the dependency on nepotism, utter lack of quality...all exactly the same if not worse. Such then is Pakistan, such then is India.

The part about Nordic countries is Ofcourse not balanced. The entire population of those countries together is probably less than that of Texas. The money they dole out to citizenry as welfare comes largely from oil mining - not to run down their industry at all, but the money is from oil rights. Like Alaska where again the state pays the people to live there, because they have oil aplenty. The Nordics also have a rather freakish immigration policy - the unsaid rule being to maintain almost a monolithic ethnicity. My point being let's not compare apples and furniture.

I'm curious at what threshold you draw the line between welfare and the sense of entitlement that you yourself point out amongst the lazy bums. Doesn't one lead to the other? Mind you I am not talking about aid to the needy who cannot work for physical or mental ailments or for lack of opportunities.

Thanks. The Nordics do not have a freakish immigration policy. Norway has one of the largest Pakistan populations in Europe ( in per centage terms ) and in fact are very open. Indeed many Pak Norwegians have moved into senior government positions. The prsent Norweigian Minister of Culture is of Pakistan extraction - Ms Hadia Tajik.

Norwegians with Pakistani background - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ttps://hadia tajik - Google Search

The basic principles that apply to norway are also applicable to UK, France, Rep.of Ireland etc. I only used Norway because they are the prime example of the social system I was referring to. So don't take Norway or it's small population or it's unique nature as my example applies broadly to all Western European Countries.

The reason I brought out about the 'lazy bums' was to show that everybody conveniently ignores the workers welfare clubs like PIA, KTC, PR and all manner of governmenet departments that are just a excuse to keep lot of people on payrolls and others to stuff their pockets with money. This cost the government and taxpayer to dole out these people in Rs 100s of billions yet nobody complains about this.

However the BISP which is designed to pay Rs1,500 to the very poor in Pakistan ( mostly female heads ) and is costing about Rs100 billion with about 20% of the poorest in Pakistan benefiting from this. To put it bluntly it puts food on the table. Nobody is going to get rich on Rs1,500 a month. Yet people here complain about people becoming 'dependants'.

Clearly have 800 PIA workers sat about per plane doing nothing but collecting probably Rs20,000 a month as well as all sort of free bees is all fine because of course most of these people are well connected with the powers that be. also it is okay for senior people in government defrauding the state in billions but a few Rupees go into som wretched poor person is high crime because presumably they don't deserve it.

As far as I am concerned I would rather have some poor fiddling couple of hundred Rupees than the rich fiddling billions. The poor will buy food the rich will buy apartments in Dubai. That is why I am big supporter of this BISP. Consider that almost 18-20% of the population of Pakistan recieve monthly Rs1,500.

That can only be a good thing. The money goes to the female head of the family. That is so liberating. It assures that poor can have roti/nan for the month. I believe the system is going to be now tweaked so that people are required to mke sure their kids go to school. Also it will be used as leverage to get the clamaints to learn new vocational skills. In addition small grants for setting up business will also start. In other words it won't be just cash in hand. It will be used to leverage changes in behaviour or as tool to educate.

It is costing about Rs100 billion a year. It cost that much to kkep PIA and couple of other white elephants going so that those employees can keep drawing their fat salaries. If the tax payer can bail them out what is wrong will giving the poor a helping hand?

BTw Rs 100 billion is 100s of tanks or 10s of F-16. We as a society have moral responsibility for the poor. If we can spend money on weapons we can spare some for the poor. I am more proud of BOSP then I am of the F-16s and Thunder and all the rest of the toys. BISP makes us greater than all the fancy weapons we have. To rest of the world while everybody braggs about F-16s I will put forth BISP. BISP alone proves more than all the weapons ( nuclear or otherwise ) that Pakistan is not a failed state.

 

[Screambowl]

Very successful state that's why OP left it and me too, and many on PDF who have posted above.. wow

 

[Huda]

@Atanz BISP is nothing more than systematic corruption cell. Luto bhutto ke naam pe jitna lut saktay ho.

 

[VelocuR]

Pakistan is already progress much better than our expectation, not really failed state.

India has been tried to destroy Pakistan last ten years through Terrorisms, it is their stupid dream.