Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Please view my gallery. I uploaded pics of israeli uav in service by IAF --shot down just southwest of Lahore by F-16 Falcon using sidewinder missile.



And regarding F-16s being upgraded by Türk Aerospace Industries --- when will they be completed? As I type this, i believe 1-2 of the aircrafts are in Ankara. The rest will receive upgrade (to block 40 spec) in Pakistan --most probably in Sarghoda.


I have heard some rumours that PAF has some funding issues with respect to this deal ---but it makes no sense --- since deals dont get finalized until the cash is handed over. And as far as i know, US Congress passed authorization for part of the funding to come from US Taxpayers to Lockheed Martin, given our efforts on war against terrorism.

Can somebody with credible knowledge please correct/refute/confirm above statements? I am sitting here wondering when the work will be completed.



regards..

 

[Arsalan]

Please view my gallery. I uploaded pics of israeli uav in service by IAF --shot down just southwest of Lahore by F-16 Falcon using sidewinder missile.



And regarding F-16s being upgraded by Türk Aerospace Industries --- when will they be completed? As I type this, i believe 1-2 of the aircrafts are in Ankara. The rest will receive upgrade (to block 40 spec) in Pakistan --most probably in Sarghoda.


I have heard some rumours that PAF has some funding issues with respect to this deal ---but it makes no sense --- since deals dont get finalized until the cash is handed over. And as far as i know, US Congress passed authorization for part of the funding to come from US Taxpayers to Lockheed Martin, given our efforts on war against terrorism.

Can somebody with credible knowledge please correct/refute/confirm above statements? I am sitting here wondering when the work will be completed.



regards..

thanks bro, but i and many of the members here have been told that the F16 are to be upgraded to block 50 specs, anyway whatever it is this is a good news, i guess we must not relay on the US MLU programe and find some replacement to it!!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

And regarding F-16s being upgraded by Türk Aerospace Industries --- when will they be completed? As I type this, i believe 1-2 of the aircrafts are in Ankara. The rest will receive upgrade (to block 40 spec) in Pakistan --most probably in Sarghoda.

2-4 F-16 are being MLU in US as we speak. TAI will be assisting us in pakistan most probibly in "kamera" and the upgrade will be done by our personals. the upgraded spec will be close to block 52 as it is PAF intention not block 40 thats why the reasion why PAF favors less clocked block 15 over block 32 offered by USAF or else it would be a hell lot cheaper to purchase block 32 and upgrade them to block 40.

 

[pakpower]

so by upgrading to block 50 will these upgraded planes will match the Performance with the latest Newly purchased Block 52 F-16s ?

Let say in firing BVR Missiles with same ability ?
Latest Radars just like newly planes and every functionality which new ones have if they have the same ability then this upgrade is very great package for PAF for increasing it's ability in defence

 

[Myth_buster_1]

so by upgrading to block 50 will these upgraded planes will match the Performance with the latest Newly purchased Block 52 F-16s ?

Let say in firing BVR Missiles with same ability ?
Latest Radars just like newly planes and every functionality which new ones have if they have the same ability then this upgrade is very great package for PAF for increasing it's ability in defence

well... i guess you didnt read thiss... and of course BVR capability in air and ground is the whole point..

* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
* Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);


MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

* 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
* 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;
* 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.

 

[Arsalan]

well... i guess you didnt read thiss... and of course BVR capability in air and ground is the whole point..

* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
* Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);.

now are the all above modificationa a part of the turkish upgrades, or are the the US MLU?? Please inform us!! also tell us about thhe specs below, you said that these are the MLU package!

MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;
* 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
* 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;
* 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets

 

[Myth_buster_1]

now are the all above modificationa a part of the turkish upgrades, or are the the US MLU?? Please inform us!! also tell us about thhe specs below, you said that these are the MLU package!

TAI will only assist us with modifications and thats it.. all major systems will be bought from US like the radar, EW suites etc... i think the engines will go to US for relife...

 

[saiko]

Any word on the PAF request to acquire the AN/ALQ-211 for the F-16s?

 

[blain2]

the DRFM, for what do we need them, as Jammers or what??

A very simplified understanding of DRFM was provided by a peer to Daily Times of Pakistan after some gentleman had claimed that without DRFM, all would be lost.

Take a read:

LETTERS:
Post letters to Letters to the Editor, The Daily Times, 41-N, Industrial Area, Gulberg II, Lahore, Pakistan Phone: 92-42-5878614-19; Fax: 92-42-5878620 E-mail: letters@dailytimes.com.pk
Letters may be edited for length and clarity

The F-16 fact file

Sir: Kamran Shafi’s article titled “Are the F-16’s up to scratch” (Daily Times, August 10) regarding the folly of Pakistan purchasing the F-16s, pointed out to him by a friend, states “What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares) is that these F-16s will not have electronic warfare (EW) programming capabilities for its radar warning receiver (RWR). It has been observed that our F-16s cannot detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since this is a NATO aircraft), while the Chinese-built F-6 could. What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, can lock on to our F-16 and fire a missile, without the craft being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft, with all the manoeuvrability in the world, a sitting duck in combat.

This is an inaccurate analysis, considering that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s do have EW capabilities. The only difference is that the F-16s now being purchased do not have a component called Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM). This means that while flying the F-16 over enemy territory, in case the craft is subjected to electronic jamming by the opposing air force, the F-16 is able to record these jamming signals and direct them at the enemy. DRFM is a relatively new technology and the Americans are unwilling to part with it at present. However this does not take away from the capability of the aircraft with regards to defending Pakistani airspace.

Pakistan’s resources are well spent on the F-16s, as countering the reiterated build-up of arms on the other side of the border is continuing cause for concern. It is high time, that a bit of reality replaces the idealism of Pakistan’s public.

 

[blain2]

On the issue of the delivery of Blk52s and MLU etc., as per the US Defence Security Agency.

The production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011.

Mid-Life Update (MLU) of the fleet of forty-six aircraft (Blain - This is the current PAF F-16 inventory): four of these aircraft are in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the MLU program. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date.

The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to
other F-16A/B customers. Falcon STAR replaces critical structural
components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life
of 8,000 spectrum hours. Falcon STAR is required to keep the original thirty two PAF F-16A/Bs air worthy.

The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide
the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the
new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now.

AN/ALQ-211 is included in the MLU update for the Pakistani aircraft.

 

[Quwa]

Regarding DRFM, I don't think it will be long before the PAF acquires it for the F-16s.

 

[fatman17]

^^^contrary to popular belief, the Obama admn will ensure that pakistan's legitimate defence needs are met as long as pakistan supports the new "afpak" doctrine now being discussed/finalised (by this May) in washington. according to the latest "Newsweek" article, the relationship between Adm Mullen and Gen.Kiyani is "the most important" and has brought the two militaries closer to each other.

so barring any "crazyness" by our civilian govt. look for a smooth delivery of military hardware in the pipeline.

 

[saiko]

Regarding DRFM, I don't think it will be long before the PAF acquires it for the F-16s.

It's going to be important to acquire some kind of modern jammer to deal with the range differential between the AMRAAM and the AMRAAMski.

Even with a RCS something like 10 times larger than the F-16s, the radar on the Su-30MKI will likely be able to pickup the F-16 at something around 110-120km out. The F-16 will pickup the Su-30MKI at pretty much maximum range, unfortunately the AMRAAM won't be able to shoot until I think ~90km in the C5+ versions of the AMRAAM?

Of course, with a really good jammer the Su-30MKI may not even be able to get a solid BVR shot at all, which would be even better.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

saiko finally showing his true colors. just dont be ashamed to call yourself indian.
btw go and check out APG-68 v9 range and C5, they are well capable of taking on MKI at BVR range. so anything IAF has is good good while PAF is just bad bad.. ok... fair enough from indian perspective.

 

[saiko]

saiko finally showing his true colors. just dont be ashamed to call yourself indian.
btw go and check out APG-68 v9 range and C5, they are well capable of taking on MKI at BVR range. so anything IAF has is good good while PAF is just bad bad.. ok... fair enough from indian perspective.

If that's how you read my last post then you're clearly a nationalist fanboy. Put the blinders back on if you want.

Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.

I guess the Pakistan Air Force is secretely made up of a bunch of India-sympathizers.