Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[PAFAce]

Self Deleted

 

[Arsalan]

the DRFM, for what do we need them, as Jammers or what??

 

[Arsalan]

With all respect seniors, i still do not have a satisfying answer to my question, the MLU from US and the Turkish Upgrade Package!!

are they both different things and each plane will get both of them, if so what will be the upgrade package for each project, what will be considered in the MLU and what will be upgraded by the turkish?
or
the fleet will be divide into two batches, one getting the US MLU M3 and the other the turkish upgrade?
or
ot the Turkish project is just as a back up in case the US cancles the deal as they do always!!!

it will be a huge favour if anyone can answer me, many other members have also shown the same confusion so it will be good for all of them also!!

thankyou

 

[Owais]

the DRFM, for what do we need them, as Jammers or what??

A digital radio-frequency memory (DRFM) is an electronic countermeasures device that samples and quantizes (analog to digital conversion) an incoming radar signal and produces (digital to analog conversion) a jamming signal from the sampled radar signal.

An expression for the frequency spectrum of a digital radio frequency memory sig

Modulated single channel digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) - US Patent 4891646 Claims

 

[PAFAce]

Originally Posted by Muradk
From what I have heard F-16/B52 deal just went south so tata to block-52. Which means more J-10s to compensate the shortage.

Is there anything official indicating the blockade of the new F-16s to Pakistan? I'd really like to hear some confirmation/denial of this statement. It doesn't have to be a direct statement saying "we are not getting the F-16s", it will most likely be subtle, like the sudden increase of the number of J-10s in the first order or a sudden interest in the J-11 etc. Let's see what transpires in the president's visit to China.

Please keep an eye out for any news. I don't get any Pakistani news channels here, so I'll keep glued to this forum and other defence sites. If you have family/friends in the PAF, try to probe them for some information. Hopefully MuradK will brief us about this bombshell a little further.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

A digital radio-frequency memory (DRFM) is an electronic countermeasures device that samples and quantizes (analog to digital conversion) an incoming radar signal and produces (digital to analog conversion) a jamming signal from the sampled radar signal.

This devise can also be used for spying puposes . Like tracking audio frequency . We can make this device locally . All you need is xylinx spartan 3 FPGA with necessory coding to prototype it. You can compleetely paralize enemy's aircraft by transmitting a virus into its digital radar signal processor and this is the reason why some of the most advanced aircrafts like F-22 or Stealth F-117 are so vonreble to deadly radar waves which they can recieve. A UAV is more exposed to such kind of electronic warefare , you can compleetely paralize it.
Digital signal processing , Quantization . Awesome subjects .
I m doing Computer Engineering and working on a simillar kind of project. A Jamming device which can jam the radars by corrupting the incoming and reflected signal .

 

[Arsalan]

Originally Posted by Muradk
From what I have heard F-16/B52 deal just went south so tata to block-52. Which means more J-10s to compensate the shortage.

not that was quite predictable and i have been sayng it lound n clear,, DO NOT TRUST AMERICANS!!!

if it is the case to be it is Sad, but the good think is that we can plan a replacement project, it is better to know it now if we are not to get them then to get a negative in 2010 and then think about some other option

for me even the american have not cancled it yet we MUST seek a replacement option in order to deal with the worst, also multiple option may prove to be motivating for the americans as they we see that PAF if going to get a modren AC finally so it will be better for them to sell it!!! (May Be)

anyways, i hope this do not proves to be the actual case and we some how get hands on to the magnificiant machine!!

May Allah Help Us

 

[PAFAce]

This devise can also be used for spying puposes . Like tracking audio frequency . We can make this device locally . All you need is xylinx spartan 3 FPGA with necessory coding to prototype it. You can compleetely paralize enemy's aircraft by transmitting a virus into its digital radar signal processor and this is the reason why some of the most advanced aircrafts like F-22 or Stealth F-117 are so vonreble to deadly radar waves which they can recieve. A UAV is more exposed to such kind of electronic warefare , you can compleetely paralize it.
Digital signal processing , Quantization . Awesome subjects .
I m doing Computer Engineering and working on a simillar kind of project. A Jamming device which can jam the radars by corrupting the incoming and reflected signal .

I don't see why just one particular type of FPGA must be used (Xylinx Spartan 3, as you say). Also, they don't use FPGAs in aircrafts, they use high integrity embedded processors, but like you said, FPGAs can be used for prototyping.

It's good to know that you are doing computer engineering and working in the signals processing / computer hardware area, however, things like microchips, DSP, A2D/D2A algorithms etc. are pretty much standard in the aviation industry, and are bought off-the-shelf or through contracting and never designed by aircraft companies. However, since you are in computer engineering, I guess your primary interest is in the actual FPGA design (combinatorial circuits, Complex State Machines etc) than on the functionality of the jamming system (correct me if I'm wrong).

The areas you really need to study if you want to get into jamming, reconnaissance, radar, lidar, deception, ECM etc. is electromagnetism, in particular, wireless electromagnetic systems (i.e., wireless radio, microwave, VHF, UHF systems etc). If you go into signal processing or computer hardware engineering (DSP, A2D/D2A, FPGA, digital/analog electronics), you will primarily be working on signal systems or chip design and not on the actual aircraft systems (i.e., you will be working for a signals company or a chip design company like Cisco, Qualcomm, Siemens, Intel, AMD etc. rather than an aircraft company like LM, Boeing, PAC etc). Therefore, the areas more directly related to the stuff you mention in your post fall under the traditional Electrical Engineering field.

 

[Arsalan]

are we looking for the this peice of equipment, will it come through the turkish upgrade ot the MLU

 

[All-Green]

This devise can also be used for spying puposes . Like tracking audio frequency . We can make this device locally . All you need is xylinx spartan 3 FPGA with necessory coding to prototype it. You can compleetely paralize enemy's aircraft by transmitting a virus into its digital radar signal processor and this is the reason why some of the most advanced aircrafts like F-22 or Stealth F-117 are so vonreble to deadly radar waves which they can recieve. A UAV is more exposed to such kind of electronic warefare , you can compleetely paralize it.
Digital signal processing , Quantization . Awesome subjects .
I m doing Computer Engineering and working on a simillar kind of project. A Jamming device which can jam the radars by corrupting the incoming and reflected signal .

As far as i recall, the offensive electronic measure usually composes of very strong interference at the same frequency of target, due to complex frequency hopping measures by modern radars it is not that easy to succeed in damaging a system this way. The more spectrum a jamming device needs to interfere with the less power at each frequency within the spectrum it shall be able to throw at the target device. This limits the chance of damaging the target system though it shall still degrade the performance of the target system.

If the frequency pattern of the radar can be predicted then the objective is to concentrate the energy at those frequencies and bombard the target system with enough energy to take the target system beyond its limits in the receive path and desensitize it or damage it permanently this way.

I honestly did not know one can attack a radar system with a virus in combat...how would the target radar be made to receive and execute a software routine which damages its DSP?
The digital signal processor may be corrupted with a virus but how would it enter the software subsystem?
UAV receives its instructions via a remote station so yes it is much easier to disrupt its communication but to damage (not disrupt) a radar/electronic suite of an advanced combat aircraft is quite a tricky thing to achieve!

Just curious, even though i am quite out of touch but still an engineer.

 

[PAFAce]

As far as i recall, the offensive electronic measure usually composes of very strong interference at the same frequency of target, due to complex frequency hopping measures by modern radars it is not that easy to succeed in damaging a system this way. The more spectrum a jamming device needs to interfere with the less power at each frequency within the spectrum it shall be able to throw at the target device. This limits the chance of damaging the target system though it shall still degrade the performance of the target system.

If the frequency pattern of the radar can be predicted then the objective is to concentrate the energy at those frequencies and bombard the target system with enough energy to take the target system beyond its limits in the receive path and desensitize it or damage it permanently this way.

I honestly did not know one can attack a radar system with a virus in combat...how would the target radar be made to receive and execute a software routine which damages its DSP?
The digital signal processor may be corrupted with a virus but how would it enter the software subsystem?
UAV receives its instructions via a remote station so yes it is much easier to disrupt its communication but to damage (not disrupt) a radar/electronic suite of an advanced combat aircraft is quite a tricky thing to achieve!

Just curious, even though i am quite out of touch but still an engineer.

I don't think he meant a 'virus' in the software sense of the word. I'm pretty sure he meant 'make the radar system sick' or in other words, decrease its efficiency. And you are correct, modern radars are built precisely to counter the electronic countermeasures (reminds me of the famous line "defense is nothing but measure and counter measure"). In his project, I assume, the transmission frequency is fixed and so he can concentrate enough energy at the known segment of the EM spectrum to 'burn' the system and render it useless. In real combat scenario, the offensive radar will somehow have to give its frequencies away for us to be able to counter it using this simple concentrated energy technique. In case of an F-22, for example, we won't even know it is in the airspace, let alone its operating frequencies, so it will be pretty much impossible to burn it (without some incredible intelligence information, that is). However, rest assured, it is only a matter of time before this capability is countered as well.

 

[hj786]

Some people say that the recent attack on Syria by the israeli air force wasn't stopped by Syria's air defence system because Israel hacked it.

The Israeli 'E-tack' on Syria ? Part I - - Air Force Technology
The Israeli 'E-tack' on Syria ? Part II - - Air Force Technology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suter_(computer_program)

Suter is a military computer program developed by BAE Systems that attacks computer networks and communications systems belonging to an enemy. Development of the program has been managed by Big Safari, a secret unit of the United States Air Force. It is specialised to interfere with the computers of integrated air defence systems.[1]

Three generations of Suter have been developed. Suter 1 allows its operators to monitor what enemy radar operators can see. Suter 2 lets them take control of the enemy's networks and direct their sensors. Suter 3, tested in summer 2006, enables the invasion of links to time-critical targets such as battlefield ballistic missile launchers or mobile surface-to-air missile launchers.

The program has been tested with aircraft such as the EC-130, RC-135, and F-16CJ.[1] It has been used in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2006.[2][3]

U.S. Air Force officials have speculated that a technology similar to Suter was used by the Israeli Air Force to thwart Syrian radars and sneak into their airspace undetected in Operation Orchard on September 6, 2007. The evasion of air defence radar was otherwise unlikely because the F-15s and F-16s used by the IAF were not equipped with stealth technology.[2][4]

If they can do it to a ground-based radar targeting system, they can probably do it to an airborne system i.e. combat aircraft and AEW/C radars.

 

[lowe1941]

^^^^I thought this is an F-16 discussion thread

I have heard that something like 76 planes have been shot down by F16s with out any losses in air to air combat with the exception of once when one pakistan F16 shot down by another Pakistan F16 by a sparrow missle in an engagement with Afgan in the 80s. Can any one verfiy this...

 

[PAFAce]

If they can do it to a ground-based radar targeting system, they can probably do it to an airborne system i.e. combat aircraft and AEW/C radars.

I have heard of this as well, but it is not a topic about which we have much info yet. The idea, I believe, is to turn the enemy's aids into its threats, or its strengths into its weekness.

When I first heard/read of this idea, the point was that conventional strength/warfare is not necessary anymore. All you need are a few computers and you can destroy the enemy through electronic infiltration into their less electronically protected systems like banks, airports, networks, hospitals, power grids, communications grid etc. You may even, if you have the capability, choose to hack into their intelligence, decision making and defence systems. This way, you have won the war before it even started (the "ultimate victory" according Sun Tzu). The idea, like many other, sounds simple but wold require huge amounts of research. Many countries, like the US (and maybe Israel), have many checks in place to prevent precisely this type of a situation, but countries like Pakistan and Syria are much more vulnerable to this type of warfare.

 

[Munir]

I have heard that something like 76 planes have been shot down by F16s with out any losses in air to air combat with the exception of once when one pakistan F16 shot down by another Pakistan F16 by a sparrow missle in an engagement with Afgan in the 80s. Can any one verfiy this...

not sparrow but aim9p