Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Zob]

if turkey just assembles these parts then why don't we cut our costs and try and assemble them in Kamra....?? don't we have the technical know how due to Mirage upgrades and now the JF-17 assembly..?

 

[mean_bird]

if turkey just assembles these parts then why don't we cut our costs and try and assemble them in Kamra....?? don't we have the technical know how due to Mirage upgrades and now the JF-17 assembly..?

You think it would be worth it to create a whole new assembly plant for what...just 18 planes? and that too assuming LM is willing to agree on that which they won't.

 

[Munir]

You think it would be worth it to create a whole new assembly plant for what...just 18 planes? and that too assuming LM is willing to agree on that which they won't.

Indeed. It is all about numbers and cost of labour... Buying a few hundreds cars is a lot cheaper then trying to setup a plant to assemble them... Unless you think about a few hundred thousands... With planes the break even point is well above 500. Europe formed a team to share the costs of developing, assembling and testing. We are not going to upgrade... We just a few...

 

[mean_bird]

Interesting read

Could the Aero India F-16s bomb India in a war?

As the F-16 fighter roars into the skies of Bengaluru at the Aero India 09 show, all attention is on the wonderful aerobatics display it puts up, not on the tiny flag of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) on its tail. But the fact is, two of the four F-16s brought here by Lockheed Martin belong to the UAE Air Force.

Two intriguing questions immediately arise: Firstly, were these aircraft flown, perhaps just days ago, by combat pilots from the Pakistani Air Force (PAF), which has long sent its officers on deputation to fly UAE fighters? Would these very aircraft, now here on a sales pitch by Lockheed Martin, have been bombing India in the event of a war with Pakistan?

Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers have confirmed to Business Standard that, in any war with India, Pakistan could field up to two squadrons of F-16 aircraft borrowed from Arab nations, where its pilots are posted on deputation.

Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, who won a Vir Chakra in combat in 1971 and went on to head the Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis, points out, “This has happened regularly. In 1965, the Jordanian Air Force supplied F-104 Starfighters to Pakistan, one of which was even shot down by the IAF. In 1971, Turkey and Iran had supplied F-86 Sabres to the PAF. I wouldn’t rule out a repeat of this kind of help.”

Air Marshal Vinod Patney, the top air force field commander during the Kargil conflict, also believes the UAE Air Force F-16s could be used against India.

He reasons, “There are Pakistani pilots there in the UAE: fact. They are flying their F-16s: fact. There is a close military relationship between those countries: fact. I would not rule out Islamic solidarity coming into play in the event of a war with India.”

Clearly visible on the UAE Air Force F-16s on display in Bangalore is an extra fuel tank, just above the wing, specially built for the batch of F-16s ordered by the UAE. The IAF believes UAE asked Lockheed Martin for the extra range to allow the Pakistani pilots in the UAE to reach Indian targets, deliver their weapons, and then fly to a Pakistani base from where they could operate for the rest of the war.

Air Chief Marshal SC Tyagi, the IAF chief until 2007, recounts, “In the Arab-Israeli war in 1967, Pakistani pilots even flew Jordanian and Iraqi fighter aircraft in combat missions against the Israeli Air Force. One Bengali pilot from East Pakistan shot down two Israeli Mystere jets during that war. There was an agreement to help each other. But the world has moved on; it’s an open question whether such an agreement exists today.”

Lockheed Martin told Business Standard that they had no idea whether Pakistani pilots had recently flown the F-16s, now in Bangalore. Douglas Hartwick, CEO of Lockheed Martin India Pvt Ltd explained, “We just leased these planes from the UAE Air Force.”

India’s strategic community is concerned about F-16 aircraft being evaluated by India despite their being in service in Pakistan. Air Chief Marshal Fali Major, the air force chief, told a press conference at the Aero India that he was not concerned, as the IAF would equip the fighters that they bought (even if they were F-16s) very differently from the PAF, and use “home-grown” tactics while flying them. But when pressed on the issue he admitted, “I am not happy that someone else has something that I have. But that’s the way the world works.”

Could the Aero India F-16s bomb India in a war?

 

[hasang20]

Interesting read

very intersting read PAF has access to all Muslims countries airspace if Israel wanted to start of war with Pakistan = no more Israel ; incase of war between Pakistan and US = Form of a big allience between Muslim countries like UAE,Pakistan,Iran and Turkey ; Pakistan Vs India help from KSA,UAE,China and even Iran will try to improve thier releationship with Pakistan ; Pakistan Launching Nukes to Atlantic = Distrupt of waterlines and Global Warming America will freeze to death.


WAR WITH PAKISTAN IS LIKE A SUCIDE MISSION

 

[Zob]

My friend i live in the UAE and i can assure u that they hate us more than the INDIANS hate us....that is the problem of the muslim world arabs argue amongst themselves and we we r ajaams to them we r not even equal to them as muslims in there eyes......so it is just paranoia that they will ever help us in war and UAE will never help us i guarantee my left nut if they ever help us Saudi might!! AND IF IT IS HELP WHY DIDN'T ANY MUSLIM HELP THE GAZA PALESTANIANS FOR 22DAYS all muslims did was CONDEMN...CONDEMN.CONDEMN...thats all what we do for each other!!!!!!! so please stop thinking anyone is coming for help help urself and god will help u!!!

 

[PAFAce]

hassang20: very intersting read PAF has access to all Muslims countries airspace if Israel wanted to start of war with Pakistan = no more Israel ; incase of war between Pakistan and US = Form of a big allience between Muslim countries like UAE,Pakistan,Iran and Turkey ; Pakistan Vs India help from KSA,UAE,China and even Iran will try to improve thier releationship with Pakistan ; Pakistan Launching Nukes to Atlantic = Distrupt of waterlines and Global Warming America will freeze to death.

Zob: My friend i live in the UAE and i can assure u that they hate us more than the INDIANS hate us....that is the problem of the muslim world arabs argue amongst themselves and we we r ajaams to them we r not even equal to them as muslims in there eyes......so it is just paranoia that they will ever help us in war and UAE will never help us i guarantee my left nut if they ever help us Saudi might!! AND IF IT IS HELP WHY DIDN'T ANY MUSLIM HELP THE GAZA PALESTANIANS FOR 22DAYS all muslims did was CONDEMN...CONDEMN.CONDEMN...thats all what we do for each other!!!!!!! so please stop thinking anyone is coming for help help urself and god will help u!!!

Two extremes, and the truth is somewhere in between.

I do not expect any countries to help us in case of war, particularly KSA, UAE etc. They are too heavily dependent on the West, even for military and defence (top UAE pilots come to Canada for NATO and Allied pilot training, all their equipment is American and European). Realistically, China may help with military hardware and Iran with some verbal support, but that's about it. We must be prepared to fight all our battles on our own. The idea of a 'One Muslim Nation', as beautiful as it sounds, does not exist today.

On the other hand, I know that Pakistanis aren't exactly treated like the locals in the UAE, and I have always hated them for that, but to think that there are no Muslims there that will at least try to help Pakistan is not a sure thing (I've lived there for 13 years too). We have provided them with a lot in terms of defence. They have always had the money, but they were/are very havily reliant on foreigners for training and support. Their defence depends quite heavily on Pakistani cooperation, and it is even part of their large-scale strategic thinking that in case of any offence from a mutually un-friendly country, the Pakistani Armed Forces will get directly lead the defence of UAE and/or KSA (in case of KSA, if the strikes are anywhere near Makkah and Madina, we will have little choice but to take charge). Their biggest contribution to Pakistan in times of war, however, will not be planes or pilots (as we have both) but a constant flow of oil and maybe finances. But this too, I'm afraid, is too much to expect in times like these. Divide and conquer is the name of the game, and the West is very good at it.

 

[hj786]

Good article mean_bird, thanks for finding and posting it. The IAF themselves say "Fact: PAF pilots are flying some of the very latest combat aircraft", yet there are kids coming here trying to convince people that "PAF only flies old out-dated planes so they do not know how to use the latest tactics and (BVR) weapons".

PAFAce great post. In war, Pakistan should make a realistic appraisal of the situation such as yours, rather than hope a bunch of uppity Arabs will come to her aid.

 

[Munir]

The arabs have the latest toys just because to keep them happy and to balance the cash flow. They will not provide us anything. I think ZOB points it out pretty realistic. If the arabs were thaqt nice then the musims would be in a lot better position. They see us as lower grade. And some are stupid enough to accept that.

 

[araz]

It is only Pakistani people that think along these lines. As far as my understanding goes, Pakistani Armed forces are very clear in what their objectives would be in case of war and who would help us. We may still send requests out, but the chances of getting anything substantial is minimal. we should there fore look towards self reliance in all aspects. If we dont expect anything from anyone,we will not be disappointed.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[IceCold]

It is only Pakistani people that think along these lines. As far as my understanding goes, Pakistani Armed forces are very clear in what their objectives would be in case of war and who would help us. We may still send requests out, but the chances of getting anything substantial is minimal. we should there fore look towards self reliance in all aspects. If we dont expect anything from anyone,we will not be disappointed.
WaSalam
Araz

You couldn't be more right then this sir. 100% spot on. The problem as witnessed by many and on this forum is that Pakistanis attach unnecessary expectations, specially with countries such as China, most believe in Ummah and what not. This is high time we realize collectively as a Nation that these large expectations will lead nowhere other then to a huge disappointment and loss.
We need to stand up and face our own monsters, no one is going to face them for us, be it China or SA or perhaps UAE.

 

[Jihad]

My friend i live in the UAE and i can assure u that they hate us more than the INDIANS hate us....that is the problem of the muslim world arabs argue amongst themselves and we we r ajaams to them we r not even equal to them as muslims in there eyes......so it is just paranoia that they will ever help us in war and UAE will never help us i guarantee my left nut if they ever help us Saudi might!! AND IF IT IS HELP WHY DIDN'T ANY MUSLIM HELP THE GAZA PALESTANIANS FOR 22DAYS all muslims did was CONDEMN...CONDEMN.CONDEMN...thats all what we do for each other!!!!!!! so please stop thinking anyone is coming for help help urself and god will help u!!!

Well they can suck my lollipop over there, I couldn't care less how low we are for them.
I can however confirm your story, a friend of mine who used to work as security guard in the store I worked was in UAE in the past and had worked as entrance guard in local disco's and clubs.
He once told me that there was this Arabian guy with the clothing and all, and people were waiting in some kind of line, and this person simply walked infront and ignored the waiting line, when my friend told him that he had to wait and go back, he simply said something like, "and who are you to tell me that I must go back etc.", all in all, he had a very big mouth, and thought that he was really something, so my friend, he's pretty big, fat and huge, he took him by his collar and dragged him out of the club and threw him outside.

He told me everyone was shocked by that because no one actually dares to touch or talk down to these "elite" duds or whatever.
Ohwell, great story, and I laughed real hard, because this is the way how you deal with scumbags who think they are above the other people, while we are all equal in Allah's (swt) eyes.

 

[Rafael]

^^^^I thought this is an F-16 discussion thread

 

[araz]

Well they can suck my lollipop over there, I couldn't care less how low we are for them.
I can however confirm your story, a friend of mine who used to work as security guard in the store I worked was in UAE in the past and had worked as entrance guard in local disco's and clubs.
He once told me that there was this Arabian guy with the clothing and all, and people were waiting in some kind of line, and this person simply walked infront and ignored the waiting line, when my friend told him that he had to wait and go back, he simply said something like, "and who are you to tell me that I must go back etc.", all in all, he had a very big mouth, and thought that he was really something, so my friend, he's pretty big, fat and huge, he took him by his collar and dragged him out of the club and threw him outside.

He told me everyone was shocked by that because no one actually dares to touch or talk down to these "elite" duds or whatever.
Ohwell, great story, and I laughed real hard, because this is the way how you deal with scumbags who think they are above the other people, while we are all equal in Allah's (swt) eyes.

You are very right. The arab mania of being better than the rest of the world is being shattered nowadays as they acquire education and learn about the rest of the world. They are in a difficult position. It is awakening which is being denied them by their rulers, so they remain asleepwithout questioning anything their rulers do. However, this dream will n0t last very long and they will get their rude awakening as in many ways are we!!!!
NOW BACK TO THE TOPUIC OF F16s PLEASE!!!
Does anyone know what is happenning in China regarding DRFM as their was a piece of news that China had started work on one. In case that is denied/not ready, what other options do we have. Do we even need one.
Thanks in advance
Araz

 

[notorious_eagle]

Well they can suck my lollipop over there, I couldn't care less how low we are for them.
I can however confirm your story, a friend of mine who used to work as security guard in the store I worked was in UAE in the past and had worked as entrance guard in local disco's and clubs.
He once told me that there was this Arabian guy with the clothing and all, and people were waiting in some kind of line, and this person simply walked infront and ignored the waiting line, when my friend told him that he had to wait and go back, he simply said something like, "and who are you to tell me that I must go back etc.", all in all, he had a very big mouth, and thought that he was really something, so my friend, he's pretty big, fat and huge, he took him by his collar and dragged him out of the club and threw him outside.

He told me everyone was shocked by that because no one actually dares to touch or talk down to these "elite" duds or whatever.
Ohwell, great story, and I laughed real hard, because this is the way how you deal with scumbags who think they are above the other people, while we are all equal in Allah's (swt) eyes.

Hahahaha soo true, in my university there are a lot of Arabs and you are right they are soo arrogant. Palestinians on numerous occasions have taken some serious beatings from our Pakistani brothers, you will be surprised how greedy and beghairat these people are.