Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[denel]

Be positive I asked if someone from PAF has well knowledge he/she must share their knowledge

Because 2019 will show IAF (india) as a big enemy with great superiority of Multi fighter jets.



Why not we start work on Eurasian technology like we make Jets with China and Russia and add Turkey as well and get engine from Rolls Royse U.K.

Turkey can help us to build a new Fighter jet, Pakistan and Turkey can make an excellent move in jets race.
SU-35 can be a good choice for PAF.

Friend, Turkey also is on a learning curve on building; it is not something they can do right away.

 

[Maxpane]

 

[MastanKhan]

Be positive I asked if someone from PAF has well knowledge he/she must share their knowledge

Because 2019 will show IAF (india) as a big enemy with great superiority of Multi fighter jets.



Why not we start work on Eurasian technology like we make Jets with China and Russia and add Turkey as well and get engine from Rolls Royse U.K.

Turkey can help us to build a new Fighter jet, Pakistan and Turkey can make an excellent move in jets race.
SU-35 can be a good choice for PAF.

Hi,

WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.

Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.

Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.

 

[ARMalik]

Hi,

WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.

Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.

Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.

Second this.....there is absolutely no need to waste time with Turkey except for some sub-systems perhaps. I think some keep raising this due to ignorance.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.

Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.

Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.

Because Turkey brings different manufacturing techniques and design experience from which we can benefit. They are responsible for manufacturing some of the systems for F-35 and partnering with them will give us access to some of this expertise. There is no problem with broadening our base of knowledge and exposure to techniques from around the world.

 

[dBSPL]

Past Pakistani governments has done a wonderful job under all the challenges, with jf-17. But could you fly this plane without Chinese support? On the other hand, how realistic is it to make Pakistani aviation entirely within the Chinese infrastructure in the future ?

If we talk about current fighter ; Forgive my ignorance bu what belong completly to Pakistan such as mainframe design, CAD and CAE, testing, analysis and verification, material engineering?

Im just ask, What rate of Pak avionics in the JF-17 project ? Who prepared the core architecture... Who wrote the FBW, who designed the mission computer ... Who gave the radar? Where is the origin of decision support systems and softwares, well who is provider such as HMD in near future? Where was the design of ECM and DAS subsytems ? Where were its electro-optical productions made? Where did the targeting systems come from?

What about Propulsion and fuel system? And weaponary?

The point here is not Turkey's direct participation in the Pakistan projects. The issue is that Pakistan creates resource diversity. This will be German-Pak colobration , or would be Russia, or Iran, does not matter. all just about details and gains.

It may not seen as a problem for you to want to make all your aviation capacity connected to a single state with all its strategic areas. However, I personally think that this will have long-term effects from Pakistan's national interests to reelpolitics.

***

You can see Turkey's capacity is small, no problem. Turkey's current backlog and the reasons why didnt need main-body designs until 2009-2010 , not the subject of this title. In short, I want to say that what Turkey made mistake in the past, its same with prevailing opinion here.

 

[MastanKhan]

Past Pakistani governments has done a wonderful job under all the challenges, with jf-17. But could you fly this plane without Chinese support? On the other hand, how realistic is it to make Pakistani aviation entirely within the Chinese infrastructure in the future ?

If we talk about current fighter ; Forgive my ignorance bu what belong completly to Pakistan such as mainframe design, CAD and CAE, testing, analysis and verification, material engineering?

Im just ask, What rate of Pak avionics in the JF-17 project ? Who prepared the core architecture... Who wrote the FBW, who designed the mission computer ... Who gave the radar? Where is the origin of decision support systems and softwares, well who is provider such as HMD in near future? Where was the design of ECM and DAS subsytems ? Where were its electro-optical productions made? Where did the targeting systems come from?

What about Propulsion and fuel system? And weaponary?

The point here is not Turkey's direct participation in the Pakistan projects. The issue is that Pakistan creates resource diversity. This will be German-Pak colobration , or would be Russia, or Iran, does not matter. all just about details and gains.

It may not seen as a problem for you to want to make all your aviation capacity connected to a single state with all its strategic areas. However, I personally think that this will have long-term effects from Pakistan's national interests to reelpolitics.

***

You can see Turkey's capacity is small, no problem. Turkey's current backlog and the reasons why didnt need main-body designs until 2009-2010 , not the subject of this title. In short, I want to say that what Turkey made mistake in the past, its same with prevailing opinion here.

Hi,

Pakistan is a small and a poor nation---. It is also somewhat a 'pariah' nation---it is not about Turkey's small capacity persay---but the issues the presence of pakistan will have with projects where pakistan is fully involved---.

Pakistan's best bet is still with the chinese---. The learning opportunity is better with the chinese in aircraft manufacture and engine---because the chinese want to counter the US military power house---. It is going to spend as much money as it needs to along with the manpower---.

I believe that pakistan should stay focused on the JF17---it is a massive project for pakistan---. Even though it looks average at this time---but the future of the JF17 all depends on the total commitment in the JF17 BLK3 production.

Pak military does not have all what you say about the design---but the pak military firmly believes in the 3M motto---' we did not make it---but we made it better '---.

The success of pak military programs is that they understand and stay within their limits of what they know and how best to utilize their assets---.

Pak military has no egos involved---they never claim to knowitall---they don't want to---they just want to build it so that they can fight their war and come out ahead of the opponent---.

 

[AFlover]

Hi,

WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.

Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.

Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.

Dear Mastan Sahib
There is no doubt that Chinese aviation industrial knowledge,R&D and involvement in JF17 project really has no match and Pakistan gained a lot and learnt a lot you are right but I think to avoid an over reliance on a single country for airforce made PAF to see other options where they see turkey as another close partner who will share and can be trusted for their know how (especially since they are in partnership with BAE for their TFX) be it little.
PAF has already experienced their dependencies and limitation on US for their front line fighter.

 

[HRK]

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money

because of "Diversification" of partners and allies in defence industries

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Pakistan is a small and a poor nation---. It is also somewhat a 'pariah' nation---it is not about Turkey's small capacity persay---but the issues the presence of pakistan will have with projects where pakistan is fully involved---.

Pakistan's best bet is still with the chinese---. The learning opportunity is better with the chinese in aircraft manufacture and engine---because the chinese want to counter the US military power house---. It is going to spend as much money as it needs to along with the manpower---.

I believe that pakistan should stay focused on the JF17---it is a massive project for pakistan---. Even though it looks average at this time---but the future of the JF17 all depends on the total commitment in the JF17 BLK3 production.

Pak military does not have all what you say about the design---but the pak military firmly believes in the 3M motto---' we did not make it---but we made it better '---.

The success of pak military programs is that they understand and stay within their limits of what they know and how best to utilize their assets---.

Pak military has no egos involved---they never claim to knowitall---they don't want to---they just want to build it so that they can fight their war and come out ahead of the opponent---.

Your thoughts are correct for JF-17. But we need to move towards indigenization for more reasons than mere security. Throughout the world, military applications have been the forefront of innovation from which technologies have trickled down to other sectors. Today, PAC is helping commercial companies with circuit design. Same is true for HIT in its respective fields. So increased military indigenization will Insha Allah lead to ripple effects in rest of the economy.

May Allah Guide us towards the right path. The path of those upon whom He Showered His Favor. Not of those who have evoked His Anger or of those who are astray. Aameen.

 

[MastanKhan]

because of "Diversification" of partners and allies in defence industries

Hi,

The success of pak military over the years has been due to the reason that it has stayed within its limits and boundaries due to a limited budget---.

That has kept the eyes focused on the ball and the project moves along successfully---.

The Turks can be allied for the EW package---.

Dear Mastan Sahib
There is no doubt that Chinese aviation industrial knowledge,R&D and involvement in JF17 project really has no match and Pakistan gained a lot and learnt a lot you are right but I think to avoid an over reliance on a single country for airforce made PAF to see other options where they see turkey as another close partner who will share and can be trusted for their know how (especially since they are in partnership with BAE for their TFX) be it little.
PAF has already experienced their dependencies and limitation on US for their front line fighter.

Hi,

The american engine issue just popped up for the helicopter---.

paf has not reached a threshold that from where it can start to spread its resource around for JV---. Once it does that---then turkey is fine for an aircraft venture---.

But when you already have a partner who is spending the all the money it can for the project---why find someone to spend your money---.

 

[HRK]

Hi,

The success of pak military over the years has been due to the reason that it has stayed within its limits and boundaries due to a limited budget---.

That has kept the eyes focused on the ball and the project moves along successfully---.

The Turks can be allied for the EW package---.

no one is asking to break the bank but to diversify the supplier ..... with in budget for a certain programme or programmes, the involvement could be related to subsystems or even to soft systems related to engineering programme ..... but THE END PRODUCT, THE SOLUTION, THE SYSTEM OF SYSTEMS should belong to us, it must be OUR PRODUCT ..... a step above JV

And for this China and Turkey are the only two countries we could have such collaboration

 

[denel]

no one is asking to break the bank but to diversify the supplier ..... with in budget for a certain programme or programmes, the involvement could be related to subsystems or even to soft systems related to engineering programme ..... but THE END PRODUCT, THE SOLUTION, THE SYSTEM OF SYSTEMS should belong to us, it must be OUR PRODUCT ..... a step above JV

And for this China and Turkey are the only two countries we could have such collaboration

Yes diversification but you are not seeing the challenge of integration of systems/sub-systems between 2 opposing parties.

 

[Nasr]

I see the point about "diversifying" where Pakistan Air Force sources for F-16 parts. Considering now that Pakistan Air Force Has 70+ F-16s, and the fact these aircraft here to remain in Pakistan Air Force for the next 20--25 years. It would be wise to secure multiple sources for spare parts for F-16s. We wouldn't want to go through another "Mirage" venture now would we? So yes, having multiple sources for spare parts for F-16s. Which are reliable and which can supply in quality and quantity. All I would like to Pakistan Air Force do is stockpile on parts, securely, catalogued and most important of all parts, engines. Because you know what they say in the aviation industry, engine is the heart of the aircraft. Without it, the aircraft is a lifeless husk.

Now having supported HRK's argument, I would also like to add is that any procurement of aircraft (any) hinders with the Thunder program, should be shelved or put on hold. Thunder program is top priority for Pakistan Air Force.

 

[HRK]

integration of systems/sub-systems between 2 opposing parties.

Two things
- We currently lack quality products and manufacturing technologies
- And we lack in R&D

so our current possible avenue for success in engineering sector(specially related to defence) is Integration we can not shy away from this just because of difficulties, we have to address our NEEDS (actually necessities) in TIMELY and AFFORDABLE manners within existing resources.