Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[araz]

noone will doubt the MLUs but buying new block52 without sabr will be debatable, whether it will be wise to spend money on a jet that cost 3-4 times more than a standard JF-17 thunder. Saving time argument can also be brought into question as unlike MLUs , even if orders are given now, it will take at least 2 years to get the new Vipers. By that time we would have started to induct block 3 thunders
so may be as a package deal it would be a good choice, but investing a little more to get SABR on board will make it on par with incoming batch of rafales, nullifying an technological superiority that IAF may attain


wasn't there a time frame with that deal.? I am indicating this for the reason of cost. as time frame has passed the cost may not be the same 1.2 billion we paid for the first 18 batch of block52 vipers

The problem is not what you want to buy but what the US Congress will allow the Government to sell. Secondly with hither to untried technology there is money required to do the research. I know that SABR is available but which aircorce has actually ordered it ? So if we are the launch customer then we will have to bear the cost of integration and testing which could be substantial. Knowing the way the. US has acted in the past is it worth relying on it for technology that may face problems in the future. Thirdly the utility of AESA when modern day warfare will be a netcentric affair with AWACS guiding the planes and most encounters taking place within BVR range( at least in theory ) what is the cost vs benefit analysis. You need to remember that the technology does not currently exist in the region and the US is always reluctant to introduce newer technology in the subcontinental theatre so there might be problems even if for a short period. It is interesting that none of the countries buying 16s including Israel have opted for AESA. A half a decade later AESA would not be such a novel thing and getting it at that time might not be so troublesome nor expensive.
Araz

 

[Basel]

The problem is not what you want to buy but what the US Congress will allow the Government to sell. Secondly with hither to untried technology there is money required to do the research. I know that SABR is available but which aircorce has actually ordered it ? So if we are the launch customer then we will have to bear the cost of integration and testing which could be substantial. Knowing the way the. US has acted in the past is it worth relying on it for technology that may face problems in the future. Thirdly the utility of AESA when modern day warfare will be a netcentric affair with AWACS guiding the planes and most encounters taking place within BVR range( at least in theory ) what is the cost vs benefit analysis. You need to remember that the technology does not currently exist in the region and the US is always reluctant to introduce newer technology in the subcontinental theatre so there might be problems even if for a short period. It is interesting that none of the countries buying 16s including Israel have opted for AESA. A half a decade later AESA would not be such a novel thing and getting it at that time might not be so troublesome nor expensive.
Araz

SABR / AGP-83 is already tested and even was offered to Taiwan as upgrade to their legacy F-16:

F-16V radar integration clears way for Taiwan upgrade - IHS Jane's 360
.

 

[MastanKhan]

The problem is not what you want to buy but what the US Congress will allow the Government to sell. Secondly with hither to untried technology there is money required to do the research. I know that SABR is available but which aircorce has actually ordered it ? So if we are the launch customer then we will have to bear the cost of integration and testing which could be substantial. Knowing the way the. US has acted in the past is it worth relying on it for technology that may face problems in the future. Thirdly the utility of AESA when modern day warfare will be a netcentric affair with AWACS guiding the planes and most encounters taking place within BVR range( at least in theory ) what is the cost vs benefit analysis. You need to remember that the technology does not currently exist in the region and the US is always reluctant to introduce newer technology in the subcontinental theatre so there might be problems even if for a short period. It is interesting that none of the countries buying 16s including Israel have opted for AESA. A half a decade later AESA would not be such a novel thing and getting it at that time might not be so troublesome nor expensive.
Araz

Sir,

That analysis is not correct---the awacs will be taken out in the first 48 to 72 hours----. Secondly----none of the nations face a massive enemy air force like that of the indian air force.

Next when 3/4th of your air force has less potent aircraft than the enemy aircraft----then a technical edge is a must----.

Your argument sound to me like a RETD engineer that was buying a Lincoln Town car from me in 1992 and I was discussing about ABS anti lock brakes and their benefits and he says---'the jury is still out on it'. 5 years later people would not want to buy a car without ABS

 

[araz]

SABR / AGP-83 is already tested and even was offered to Taiwan as upgrade to their legacy F-16:

F-16V radar integration clears way for Taiwan upgrade - IHS Jane's 360
.

And they did not go for it!!!Reason. Look the point still stands the US will not offer you something that is not present in the region. The prospect of AESA was there even with the 52s that we ought and we did not go for it on account of US reluctance. Would that have changed? You say yes and I say No -@@@@ lets wait and find out.
@Mastan Khan.
I dont deny the utility but the feasibility of AESA from US. If we get it from China/via Selex it might make the argument a better one for the Congress to swallow. But in its current iteration I think it will be a struggle. Lets wait and see.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.

 

[syedali73]

Hi,

Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.

And I don't think Pakistan will ever reveal its acquisition of AESA. Who knows some of our JFs are already flying with it.

 

[untitled]

Hi,

Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.

If Pakistan gets an American AESA, how long will it take the Indians to get a similar Radar ? on MKI, Rafale or M2K?

 

[MastanKhan]

If Pakistan gets an American AESA, how long will it take the Indians to get a similar Radar ? on MKI, Rafale or M2K?

Hi,

Looking at their history---a longtime---. But that is not the issue----. Our focus needs to be on our capabilities first of all. They will be getting aesa on the rafales---if they are not getting it on their M2K upgrades---I can't say much.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hi,

Looking at their history---a longtime---. But that is not the issue----. Our focus needs to be on our capabilities first of all. They will be getting aesa on the rafales---if they are not getting it on their M2K upgrades---I can't say much.

Indian options... Israel, Russia, Europe, USA?
Pakistan options... China.. USA???, Europe????, Israel x

Pakistan economical recovery + successful completion of ZeA operation is the key to go. Regarding Indian Pakistan military parity.. JF17 has been a game changer.. BLK-2 and upcoming BLK-3 with AESA has created some real ripples across the border, especially when they look towards their own project. Saga of MMRCA and dropping number of operational squadrons, headache of maintaining SU-30 fleet are taking it toll.

Cutting edge technologies on both side acts as a deterrent.. which Pakistan policy is... to maintain a minimal credible nuclear/conventional parity.
In case of conflict, numbers will matter now. I have no reason to doubt, that after delivery of 3rd block JF17, PAC will start a new project.. they have acquired expertise, knowledge and infrastructure of aviation industry via JF17 project, it will not end with 3rd block. PAF will and take any chance of getting F16s also, whenever available, just like Ex-Jordanians...

AESA from USA in current situation is a big No-No.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Indian options... Israel, Russia, Europe, USA?
Pakistan options... China.. USA???, Europe????, Israel x

Pakistan economical recovery + successful completion of ZeA operation is the key to go. Regarding Indian Pakistan military parity.. JF17 has been a game changer.. BLK-2 and upcoming BLK-3 with AESA has created some real ripples across the border, especially when they look towards their own project. Saga of MMRCA and dropping number of operational squadrons, headache of maintaining SU-30 fleet are taking it toll.

Cutting edge technologies on both side acts as a deterrent.. which Pakistan policy is... to maintain a minimal credible nuclear/conventional parity.
In case of conflict, numbers will matter now. I have no reason to doubt, that after delivery of 3rd block JF17, PAC will start a new project.. they have acquired expertise, knowledge and infrastructure of aviation industry via JF17 project, it will not end with 3rd block. PAF will and take any chance of getting F16s also, whenever available, just like Ex-Jordanians...

AESA from USA in current situation is a big No-No.

what if told you india is already testing a new version of LCA with indian made AESA + wants or is in process of exploring possibility of fitting the same AESA in its second line of fighter planes (jags,Mig29,M2k) while a proto type of MKI with AESA radar and EW suite and self protection jammers is already in testing in russia

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

what if told you india is already testing a new version of LCA with indian made AESA + wants or is in process of exploring possibility of fitting the same AESA in its second line of fighter planes (jags,Mig29,M2k) while a proto type of MKI with AESA radar and EW suite and self protection jammers is already in testing in russia

Who is stopping you?
Whether install AESA on every single plane of your air force or on the heads of all your ministers, its no concern for us now. Concern for us is how many on a single day we will be facing?
This was the bottom line of my post.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Who is stopping you?
Whether install AESA on every single plane of your air force or on the heads of all your ministers, its no concern for us now. Concern for us is how many on a single day we will be facing?
This was the bottom line of my post.

welli got yourpoint but here alsowe have neumaricalsuperiorty backed bythe latest aviation techin this theater thanks to inputs from israel and russia did you know india is also in process of intigrating latest BVR version of Derby ER

I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

The new seeker is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used by the missile designers to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km., significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.

This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.

The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.



Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.

Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.

A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.

 

[araz]

welli got yourpoint but here alsowe have neumaricalsuperiorty backed bythe latest aviation techin this theater thanks to inputs from israel and russia did you know india is also in process of intigrating latest BVR version of Derby ER

I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

The new seeker is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used by the missile designers to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km., significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.

This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.

The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.



Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.

Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.

A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.

If you do so good for IAF. The posts are not about IAF and ìts integration strategy but of PAF. We know IAF will also make strides and improve but to us it is a matter of what PAF is doing. From legacy fighters to a BVR capable fleet is a massive improvement for us.
Araz

 

[GURU DUTT]

If you do so good for IAF. The posts are not about IAF and ìts integration strategy but of PAF. We know IAF will also make strides and improve but to us it is a matter of what PAF is doing. From legacy fighters to a BVR capable fleet is a massive improvement for us.
Araz

you dint get my intention sir what i was saying that your primarry fighteris and will be F-16s and many mebers from your side think they with AIM C BVR is a invincible combo but with new improoved Derby ER(which is compatiable to all fighters with derby)easily takes away "technikal edge"from PAF and when we already neumarical superiorty over PAF hence lets talk peace

 

[Neptune]

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