Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Kompromat]

Yes Sir, but something more definitive is needed before you can conclude that the F-16MLU was superior to the Typhoons in that exercise for BVR scenarios.

DACT exercises are not BVR.

Pics or it didn't happen. Besides, PAF is bringing a bad image to itself in the international arena if it continues publishing confidential exercise results. That assuming it is right in the first place.

Results wasn't published by PAF. But by aviation journalist Alan Warne. He hasn't stated that he received this information from PAF.

 

[slapshot]

DACT exercises are not BVR.

This will bring us back to the question that maneuvers only count more in WVR scenarios

 

[Argus Panoptes]

DACT exercises are not BVR...............

Yes Sir, that is why I will maintain that the supposed successes being discussed here are only for WVR situations, and not BVR, unless evidence to the contrary is shared.

 

[Kompromat]

@Mosamania

PAF pilots earn nothing by winning from Saudi pilots. Saudi pilots,in most cases rookies gain alot by losing. Remember this is not kids playing games. Its true prefessionals 'helping' their friends so that when they encounter a not so friendly pilot,they have a better chance to come home alive.

Most of us fanboys have no idea about the atmosphere they have in the ACMI control rooms, and board rooms. They fight each other and then go down and help each other understanf,how it could have been done differently.

PAF has most amount of real air combat experiance with 2nd,3rd and 4th gen platforms. Therefore the 'repute' is 'earned'. Those guys who lost in this exercise will one day make your best pilots, its all about learning.

@Argus Panoptes

Sir no one discussed BVR, there was no mention of it. PAF's BVR capabilities are premitive. Turks and Chinese are filling our training gaps.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

.................
@Argus Panoptes

Sir no one discussed BVR, there was no mention of it. PAF's BVR capabilities are premitive. Turks and Chinese are filling our training gaps.

I would agree with that of course, as long it is made clear to fanboys that BVR is a whole 'nother kettle of fish and we are indeed not as good with BVR as we are with WVR, no matter how upgraded our F-16s are. Confidence is good; overconfidence is not.

 

[Jungibaaz]

This will bring us back to the question that maneuvers only count more in WVR scenarios

For the most part.
But why so glum, chum?

WVR combat is by no means a thing of the past, and our pilots it seems are some of the best in the world for it.
In fact, in our theatre there will be a lot more WVR engagements.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Only within WVR scenarios, please note.

Dear as other members mentioned that there is no description of maneuvers in this specific tweet. Secondly maneuvers are not only w.r.t WVR only. For a successful BVR shot also airplane have to maneuver itself in a perfect position (height, speed, angle). Pilot have to be certain regarding kill probability before firing a 300,000 dollars missile. Fighter air crafts move very fast and in matter of seconds BVR engagement is changed to WVR. Many experts still believe that WVR will count 80% air to air combats in future. To date all BVR kills were either against slow moving turbo props (like PN Atlantic) or contemporary Serbian or Iraqi fighters like Mig21, 23 and 29. No Early warning and no Radars to engage enemy or even adopt defensive posture.
If WVR was a thing of the past, then why countries are investing in latest 30g+ WVR missiles with off-bore sites and HMD support?

And also in BVR, if you are in defensive position, still pilot skill will be counted, when he will receive an early warning. And there is also a pilot skill involved, when a smart pilot will turn the table in its favor by forcing a bvr engagement into WVR.

And sir, i would also like to have your views where you compared EF Typhoon with F-16 blk52 in BVR engagements?

PS: If someone plz also tell that what Saudis Typhoon's specification? Have they got IRST? If yes then even beating them in WVR is a serious thing.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

PAF F-16 MLU in recent Saudi exercise outperform Typhoon and F-15 according to Allen Warne

another tweet

According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief..

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Dear as other members mentioned that there is no description of maneuvers in this specific tweet. Secondly maneuvers are not only w.r.t WVR only. For a successful BVR shot also airplane have to maneuver itself in a perfect position (height, speed, angle). Pilot have to be certain regarding kill probability before firing a 300,000 dollars missile. Fighter air crafts move very fast and in matter of seconds BVR engagement is changed to WVR. Many experts still believe that WVR will count 80% air to air combats in future. To date all BVR kills were either against slow moving turbo props (like PN Atlantic) or contemporary Serbian or Iraqi fighters like Mig21, 23 and 29. No Early warning and no Radars to engage enemy or even adopt defensive posture.
If WVR was a thing of the past, then why countries are investing in latest 30g+ WVR missiles with off-bore sites and HMD support?

And also in BVR, if you are in defensive position, still pilot skill will be counted, when he will receive an early warning. And there is also a pilot skill involved, when a smart pilot will turn the table in its favor by forcing a bvr engagement into WVR.

And sir, i would also like to have your views where you compared EF Typhoon with F-16 blk52 in BVR engagements?

PS: If someone plz also tell that what Saudis Typhoon's specification? Have they got IRST? If yes then even beating them in WVR is a serious thing.

I agree with you that we are pretty good in WVR engagements, and that WVR skills remain important. However, BVR capabilities are not our strong suit and that fact needs to be kept in mind. Additionally, BVR will be increasingly important in the future, although, as you say, not exclusively.

 

[shanixee]

@shanixee @Argus Panoptes

That was in the previous exercise in 2008, for the latest against Saudi air force, Alan warnes specifically mentions, PAF contingent as F-16 (MLU)........ meaning BVR capable machines were involved.

exactly this is what I am talking about...Thanks for mentioning it...

 

[Argus Panoptes]

exactly this is what I am talking about...Thanks for mentioning it...

What exactly are you saying Sir? Are you claiming that Pakistani F-16 MLUs demonstrated wins in BVR scenarios in addition to the known WVR wins? That cannot be correct.

 

[Windjammer]

Asked Alan this morning on whether the scenario was just WVR or BVR tactics were involved,....rather than completely denying it, he simply replied, that he doesn't know more. !!

 

[fatman17]

u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)

 

[Armstrong]

u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)

And what do they say ?

 

[shanixee]

u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)

can you please tell me any israeli website.??regards..