Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Windjammer]

One of the original F-16B model delivered to PAF in mid-80s still looking immaculate even after 25 years in service.

 

[Munir]

Windjammer: I have discussed this more then ones with those that maintain and fly these planes. These were our best assets for decades. We treated them like it was gold. We paid high price for spares but we never did not optimize these birds and it shows that these Block15 birds are by far the best maintained birds ever. If you compare them with even block40+ then you still be surprised which is older... But do not get me wrong. The non MLU block 15's are not good enough to go for battle with most of our adversaries on the Indian side. In that case JF17 is a lot more suited with BVR, superb glass cockpit and a lot more goodies I cannot disclose.

 

[Windjammer]

Windjammer: I have discussed this more then ones with those that maintain and fly these planes. These were our best assets for decades. We treated them like it was gold. We paid high price for spares but we never did not optimize these birds and it shows that these Block15 birds are by far the best maintained birds ever. If you compare them with even block40+ then you still be surprised which is older... But do not get me wrong. The non MLU block 15's are not good enough to go for battle with most of our adversaries on the Indian side. In that case JF17 is a lot more suited with BVR, superb glass cockpit and a lot more goodies I cannot disclose.

Agreed with most of your points but i'm always dismayed by the highlighted part, why do we forget that the IAF is still operating aircraft which are less capable than our older Block-15s......it's not that all the battles would be fought against the likes of MKI....they still operate, Jaguars, MiGs and Mirages.....while no doubt the JF-17 will be the back bone but don't write off the PG...which after all was our first BVR capable fighter.

 

[Munir]

The issue is that with MKI does change the situation. It has range to loiter, attack and retreat. It does not have to come close to you. It can look far and shoot lots of BVR. You do not want to be pushed in anti BVR tactic. I think we agree on that.

But... You do not want to come in WVR combat with the other adversary. The whole idea of latest generation planes and weapons is that you keep out of sight (radar, visual) and destroy opponent. If you have to go near then you risk raises. Would you go against M2K? If it is between hills then ok but up there 8000+ meters I would not fight M2K in an F16 Block15. But I would not try to risk it against other planes. We do not have spares nor big numbers.

The PG is nice. But still the Mig21 which has its era. Its is limited in high altitude, range, load, radar, sensors, ecm etc. And I agree that you can attach an BVR but you do not want to launch it. People that know Mig21 do exactly know what happens. That is why I never overestimate the Bison upgrade (Mig21 Bis of IAF).

I Think that JF17 really altered the situation. It does not have more then 2 BVR but it delivers a punch to attackers and has all the needs to be a game changer. This is same for Block52 but we all know that strings are hindering the effective usage.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

The issue is that with MKI does change the situation. It has range to loiter, attack and retreat. It does not have to come close to you. It can look far and shoot lots of BVR. You do not want to be pushed in anti BVR tactic. I think we agree on that.

But... You do not want to come in WVR combat with the other adversary. The whole idea of latest generation planes and weapons is that you keep out of sight (radar, visual) and destroy opponent. If you have to go near then you risk raises. Would you go against M2K? If it is between hills then ok but up there 8000+ meters I would not fight M2K in an F16 Block15. But I would not try to risk it against other planes. We do not have spares nor big numbers.

The PG is nice. But still the Mig21 which has its era. Its is limited in high altitude, range, load, radar, sensors, ecm etc. And I agree that you can attach an BVR but you do not want to launch it. People that know Mig21 do exactly know what happens. That is why I never overestimate the Bison upgrade (Mig21 Bis of IAF).

I Think that JF17 really altered the situation. It does not have more then 2 BVR but it delivers a punch to attackers and has all the needs to be a game changer. This is same for Block52 but we all know that strings are hindering the effective usage.

Yet these are the strings that many people simply deny exist.

 

[Bratva]

Yet these are the strings that many people simply deny exist.

Mjhay bhe Mansoor Ijaz say milwa do please, meri bhe bigri hui taqdeer badal jaye...

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Mjhay bhe Mansoor Ijaz say milwa do please, meri bhe bigri hui taqdeer badal jaye...

nevermind .....

 

[Bratva]

nevermind .....

Kio aesi umeed ki thi mai nai jo aisay nakaam hui..... nevermind

 

[INDIAISM]

Agreed with most of your points but i'm always dismayed by the highlighted part, why do we forget that the IAF is still operating aircraft which are less capable than our older Block-15s......it's not that all the battles would be fought against the likes of MKI....they still operate, Jaguars, MiGs and Mirages.....while no doubt the JF-17 will be the back bone but don't write off the PG...which after all was our first BVR capable fighter.

It looks like you forgot that your adversary is operating Mig 29 of Mig series,Mirage 2000 of Mirage series which are on Par with F 16....and in this case one step ahead of PAF F16 Blk15 Fleet as IAF has been upgrading its fighter fleet on regular intervals....

 

[Windjammer]

It looks like you forgot that your adversary is operating Mig 29 of Mig series,Mirage 2000 of Mirage series which are on Par with F 16....and in this case one step ahead of PAF F16 Blk15 Fleet as IAF has been upgrading its fighter fleet on regular intervals....

Yes I'm well aware of that albeit the IAF still operates sufficient numbers of MiG-21s as well.
You will find that like the PAF F-16s, the Indian MiG-29s are currently going through an upgrade while Mirage-2000 upgrade has recently been approved....having some combat experience with the types also helps.

 

[Munir]

Yes I'm well aware of that albeit the IAF still operates sufficient numbers of MiG-21s as well.
You will find that like the PAF F-16s, the Indian MiG-29s are currently going through an upgrade while Mirage-2000 upgrade has recently been approved....having some combat experience with the types also helps.

I do not think that they will use mig21 with extremely short legs to counter anything more then base attack... Like we put our F16 in front they will push MKI in our face. You can try to look at the other planes but you lost the battle.

 

[Windjammer]

I do not think that they will use mig21 with extremely short legs to counter anything more then base attack... Like we put our F16 in front they will push MKI in our face. You can try to look at the other planes but you lost the battle.

Coming back to your earlier assessment and loosing battle to a single aircraft kind, I have had a few detailed discussions with someone who participated as a RIO in the first Gulf war, his observations and comments do draw attention.....briefly he's of the opinion that unlike US and Russia or China, Pakistan and India share a common border hence very little reaction time to distinguish the incoming and out going flight sorties, the AWACS on both side of the border will be struggling to keep up with all the air traffic besides since India will never be able to have complete air superiority hence it will not be able to deploy a large platform like the MKI totally independently......on another note one can argue that on the sidelines of the 2007 Indra Dhanush Exercise, couple of Typhoon pilots made mincemeat of the MKI......where as the same Euro-fighters were knocked out by the PAF in another multi national exercise. !!

 

[Nishan_101]

One of the original F-16B model delivered to PAF in mid-80s still looking immaculate even after 25 years in service.

Although it was minor mistakes that PAF done in the past like if they had negotiated with US in 2002 for getting there 28 F-16 Blcok-15s as well as ordering about 37-57 F-16 Blcok-52s(with 7 F-16DBlcok-52s just for CSS like top gun has) and also getting in talk for buying Venuezvellan 21 F-16 Blcok-15s and starting to upgrade all of them in Turkey from 2004 till 2008. So that I am sure we would have a quite a decent fleet and could have replace some 50 Mirages from frontline in to spares...

 

[INDIAISM]

Yes I'm well aware of that albeit the IAF still operates sufficient numbers of MiG-21s as well.
You will find that like the PAF F-16s, the Indian MiG-29s are currently going through an upgrade while Mirage-2000 upgrade has recently been approved....having some combat experience with the types also helps.

But that doesn't make it less capable then F-16..

Secondly, IAF Pilot also have alot of experience with F-16...

Thirdly, the total number of these platform in IaF only is around 120 and on the other hand PAF operate 77 F-16....at the end number does make a difference....

Forthly,If IAF operates sufficient amount of Mig21's then you should also see that large part of PAF jet inventory consist of F-7,Mirage III & V....

 

[SQ8]

But that doesn't make it less capable then F-16..

Secondly, IAF Pilot also have alot of experience with F-16...

Thirdly, the total number of these platform in IaF only is around 120 and on the other hand PAF operate 77 F-16....at the end number does make a difference....

Forthly,If IAF operates sufficient amount of Mig21's then you should also see that large part of PAF jet inventory consist of F-7,Mirage III & V....

It's capability is determined as its input into the overall system and that is a discussion for another thread.
Please confine your comments on PAF F-16 developments. This is not a thread for lengthy versus discussions.