Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Imran Khan]

 

[ziaulislam]

We got 18 Block 52+ for $1.8 Billion. $45 Million per unit.

sir by your calculation 18 for 1.8 billion costs 100 million not 45 million...

most of f-16s deals around the world costs around 100 million...
i dont know but peopel for some unknown reason like to under quote f-16 prices..you cant even get a gripen less than 70 million...

we confuse flyout costs with actual cost(which include R&D and other taxes etc)..flyout cost may be around 50 million for f-16 but to foreign customer it would still cost around 100 million

 

[Nishan_101]

I think in 2002, we should only have negotiated on getting back our 28 F-16s and upgrading it in Turkey by involving our Technicians and Engineers there. More over, we can also negotiate with Venuezvela along with U.S over the purchase of 24 F-16s from there which are Block-15s and can be upgraded too in Turkey in this way we would have:
31+28+24=83 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3 being ready till 209 if they upgrade has started from 2003/2004

No need of Block52 instead invest in JF-17 facilities and production along with future development of JF-17s.

 

[Patriot]

I think in 2002, we should only have negotiated on getting back our 28 F-16s and upgrading it in Turkey by involving our Technicians and Engineers there. More over, we can also negotiate with Venuezvela along with U.S over the purchase of 24 F-16s from there which are Block-15s and can be upgraded too in Turkey in this way we would have:
31+28+24=83 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3 being ready till 209 if they upgrade has started from 2003/2004

No need of Block52 instead invest in JF-17 facilities and production along with future development of JF-17s.

Honestly I've had enough of this JF-17 bullshit.If you don't have anything else to say just don't visit F-16's thread.What part of over-relying you guys dont understand?Without F-16's You would have nothing to match SU30.JF-17 does not even come close to Block 52 specs wise.Why not just attach a jet engine and two wings to a Suzuki Mehran for defense of our air space..it will be indigenous and cheap.I don't know whats wrong with you guys..We got the fking AIM120 with F-16 which pretty much gave the most lethal BVR capability to PAF.Don't think relying too much on Chinese would be a good thing.They are much more cruel businessman then Americans.

 

[umair86]

Honestly I've had enough of this JF-17 bullshit.If you don't have anything else to say just don't visit F-16's thread.What part of over-relying you guys dont understand?Without F-16's You would have nothing to match SU30.JF-17 does not even come close to Block 52 specs wise.Why not just attach a jet engine and two wings to a Suzuki Mehran for defense of our air space..it will be indigenous and cheap.I don't know whats wrong with you guys..We got the fking AIM120 with F-16 which pretty much gave the most lethal BVR capability to PAF.Don't think relying too much on Chinese would be a good thing.They are much more cruel businessman then Americans.

Well said we have been relying on chinese too much although they have supported us time and again but their weapon still lagging behind the west by large margin Block 52+ is superior to anything Indians have at the moment with its AMRAAM capability only issue is will it be useful in combat. JF-17 is a workhorse type of aircraft which can absorb losses in the event of war as you can throw many of them in combat at a given time it still lags and won't be competing against F-16 in PAF its a different class fighter. If it gets modern state of the art western avionics than it will be competitive. Even the Indian put western avionics in MKI to make it competitive. We are just over confident on JF-17 which hasn't got BVR IOC yet after 4 years of service.

 

[IceCold]

Honestly I've had enough of this JF-17 bullshit.If you don't have anything else to say just don't visit F-16's thread.What part of over-relying you guys dont understand?Without F-16's You would have nothing to match SU30.JF-17 does not even come close to Block 52 specs wise.Why not just attach a jet engine and two wings to a Suzuki Mehran for defense of our air space..it will be indigenous and cheap.I don't know whats wrong with you guys..We got the fking AIM120 with F-16 which pretty much gave the most lethal BVR capability to PAF.Don't think relying too much on Chinese would be a good thing.They are much more cruel businessman then Americans.

The mistake we made while dealing with the americans was to relied too much on them. We are repeating the same mistake with China. People tend to forget that there is no brotherhood crap, its pure business and strategic interest. China has both in Pakistan and so they will continue to support us but that does not mean that we become so dependent upon them that once of if they pull the plug we fall on our faces.

 

[Viper0011.]

Well said we have been relying on chinese too much although they have supported us time and again but their weapon still lagging behind the west by large margin Block 52+ is superior to anything Indians have at the moment with its AMRAAM capability only issue is will it be useful in combat. JF-17 is a workhorse type of aircraft which can absorb losses in the event of war as you can throw many of them in combat at a given time it still lags and won't be competing against F-16 in PAF its a different class fighter. If it gets modern state of the art western avionics than it will be competitive. Even the Indian put western avionics in MKI to make it competitive. We are just over confident on JF-17 which hasn't got BVR IOC yet after 4 years of service.

Both the above posts have real flawed logic. Indigenous is the way to go for a country like Pakistan. You guys never like your own stuff and that's why you guys are always separated nationally. Look at Indians, they hate each others states and backgrounds but to the world, they ALL become ONE INDIA. JFT will provide a valuable option and hedge against the west in case others think of sanctions. They'll lose more control over Pakistan by doing so as Pakistan can say good bye and increase the quantity of what they are building. It may not be a F-22 but it's decent enough to defend Pakistan's sky.....vs. top of the line jets that look pretty on tarmac and can't fly due to spares or can't be upgraded!

 

[Xracer]

sir by your calculation 18 for 1.8 billion costs 100 million not 45 million...

most of f-16s deals around the world costs around 100 million...
i dont know but peopel for some unknown reason like to under quote f-16 prices..you cant even get a gripen less than 70 million...

we confuse flyout costs with actual cost(which include R&D and other taxes etc)..flyout cost may be around 50 million for f-16 but to foreign customer it would still cost around 100 million

If F16 Cost 100 Million why fuk we dont buy F15 or F 18 Super Hornet (US$66.9 million (2012 flyaway cost) while f16 Flyaway Cost is around 50 Million) or some other aircrafft

 

[razgriz19]

If F16 Cost 100 Million why fuk we dont buy F15 or F 18 Super Hornet (US$66.9 million (2012 flyaway cost) while f16 Flyaway Cost is around 50 Million) or some other aircrafft

F-16 is the cheaper of three.
Just because the wiki says the flyaway cost for F-18 and F-15 are this and that, It does not mean that its entirely true.
When you buy an aircraft, you buy a whole new infrastructure, maintenance parts, crew training, pilot training, etc.
F-16s did NOT cost us more than the hornet or the eagle.

sir by your calculation 18 for 1.8 billion costs 100 million not 45 million...

most of f-16s deals around the world costs around 100 million...
i dont know but peopel for some unknown reason like to under quote f-16 prices..you cant even get a gripen less than 70 million...

we confuse flyout costs with actual cost(which include R&D and other taxes etc)..flyout cost may be around 50 million for f-16 but to foreign customer it would still cost around 100 million

these things (listed below) were ALSO part of that $1.8 billion dollar deal.

The package for Pakistan’s new F-16s also includes:

"7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
18 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
18 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
18 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft’s sides to give them extra range
18 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
18 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
18 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
18 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
1 Unit Level Trainer
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability."

 

[alimobin memon]

We aren't relying as much as u think on china ... Jfthunder "was" a simple replacement and "now" it is more than even air force official expected ... Without F16 we still are the same , when in 15 million dollar jf17 has 85% same capabilities as blk52+ , most people neglect the avionics of jf17 , the block 52+ so far only provided the SAR capability to PAF and BVR which we didn't have as before (but we already were expecting jf17 to PAF in months ) until jf17 arrived yes jf17 has it , when a plane is designed it is expensive if it's development cost is too much USA spends billions of dollars on SAR and EW , missile technology they have to subsequently R&D them so the cost of f16 is definitely going to very HIGH. While'st Jf17 is an development from f16 and existing designs which saved time and costs for example initial the jf17 has conventional intake than later PAF and china came to know that DSI is cheaper and stealthier then just changed it with little modifications. The Radar was already present in j10 , Missile's with All aspect were already present that is why jf17 is cheaper. The Problem with Pakistani's is they still believe that China products suck , but one must realise almost Whole world for example AMD , Intel , Nvidia, Nokia there nano parts are made by the chinese industries. pakistani are scared of the label "Made in China" dont get ur self so fooled .
I have personnel's from army and airforce who have clearly admit have new hope that pakistan is getting back to a good technology and reliable friend. It is not like China is doing for free we have given them access to karakorum highway and Gwadar port which is far too important for chinese economy. Fact is Both the sides are relying.

So let me come to point that F16 is awesome but jf17 is awesome too . and we can live without f16 but problem is we have to take time to master the skills on jf17 which is obvious when u induct new plane.

 

[MastanKhan]

We aren't relying as much as u think on china ... Jfthunder "was" a simple replacement and "now" it is more than even air force official expected ... Without F16 we still are the same , when in 15 million dollar jf17 has 85% same capabilities as blk52+ , most people neglect the avionics of jf17 , the block 52+ so far only provided the SAR capability to PAF and BVR which we didn't have as before (but we already were expecting jf17 to PAF in months ) until jf17 arrived yes jf17 has it , when a plane is designed it is expensive if it's development cost is too much USA spends billions of dollars on SAR and EW , missile technology they have to subsequently R&D them so the cost of f16 is definitely going to very HIGH. While'st Jf17 is an development from f16 and existing designs which saved time and costs for example initial the jf17 has conventional intake than later PAF and china came to know that DSI is cheaper and stealthier then just changed it with little modifications. The Radar was already present in j10 , Missile's with All aspect were already present that is why jf17 is cheaper. The Problem with Pakistani's is they still believe that China products suck , but one must realise almost Whole world for example AMD , Intel , Nvidia, Nokia there nano parts are made by the chinese industries. pakistani are scared of the label "Made in China" dont get ur self so fooled .
I have personnel's from army and airforce who have clearly admit have new hope that pakistan is getting back to a good technology and reliable friend. It is not like China is doing for free we have given them access to karakorum highway and Gwadar port which is far too important for chinese economy. Fact is Both the sides are relying.

So let me come to point that F16 is awesome but jf17 is awesome too . and we can live without f16 but problem is we have to take time to master the skills on jf17 which is obvious when u induct new plane.

Sir,

Seems like there is error in your post----the 85% capability is in comparison to the first BLK of F16's we got and not the BLK52.

 

[Windjammer]

Going Ballistic

Flaming Arrow

 

[Nishan_101]

The mistake we made while dealing with the americans was to relied too much on them. We are repeating the same mistake with China. People tend to forget that there is no brotherhood crap, its pure business and strategic interest. China has both in Pakistan and so they will continue to support us but that does not mean that we become so dependent upon them that once of if they pull the plug we fall on our faces.

Yeah! thanks for opening my eyes. But if this is the situation then moving towards EF-2000 in JV like for 150 of them wasn't a bad idea?in 1998

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Imran Khan]