Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Najam Khan]

my guess, Italian f16 a/b model being sent to pak ?.. Same type engine pw 220E
, blk 30 , 40 has ge engine

No, we didn't received them...i think PAF received some spare engines in 80s and some after 2005. Thanks to PAC, they have upgraded them to -220E.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thank God someone came out and said something that was sane -- Thank you Mosamania.

I have always maintained that PAF is not full of idiots. It knows what can be achieved with which type of platform, for how long.
We on this forum, generally tend to think in terms of today or most, this year. For PAF there is a today, tomorrow and the legacy yesterday!!! It cannot wave a wand and do things that safeguard or cover all bases.

It has to keep in perspective what it have in the inventory, what has been ordered, and what is needed in the future while keeping the enemy developments in sight, the platform evolution (all three: the current platforms, the ordered ones and any likely future platform), and the financial constraints in sight along with possible access/availability of various platforms.

One must admit, it is a tall order and a complex situation with numerous combinations and permutations to choose from.

What PAF is doing:

High end fighter: F-16, A ten to fifteen year plus program.

Why:

Money for new fighters paid and goods more or less received.
The legacy fleet upgrade program underway. Program certification and commercials agreed to, some of the payments made.
Newly inducted fleet including trained pilots and weapons integration completed, more or less.
Ground support equipment either already there or bought with the new deal. Already paid for.
This induction and operation will keep PAF at a reasonable force levels and quality. Furthermore, possibility to procure more a/c at minimal cost to enhance fleet levels is always there.

Mid range aircraft: JFT a fifteen to twenty five plus year program.

Why:
The platform has been built ground up, with PAF requirements in mind.
Gives us the capability to get into base line R&D and serial production of higher performance aircrafts.
Lower cost replacement option for its legacy fleet as compared to European and US options (Russian options are off the table; likewise the European link is also out due to cost and Indian pressure).
Capacity for future growth in the basic airframe and configuration of the a/c.

Future High performance A/: FC 20 or a European/Russian design.

Why:
FC-20 induction was delayed due to development cost and integration of avionics and western weapons.
PAF backed out of the immediate buy due to cost factors and delay in the roll out of the definitive version of the FC-20.
A more powerful Chinese power plant and western avionics remains a challenge and is also a question mark on the JFT as well.

Broad baseline for decision making by PAF for the above force structure:

In hand cutting edge fighter with complete ability to maintain, train, service, and fly the full envelope. Tried and tested weapons and avionics, tactics, training – F16’s. Furthermore, money already invested in the orders, infrastructure etc.

Investment done in JFT for R&D, future enhancements, and complete understanding of doctrine of deployment of the fighter. Already fully committed to the program.

FC-20 remains an option; wait and see for the specs, given by PAF, to be incorporated into the plane. PAF does not want to go into and buy another platform with similar issues like JFT. Furthermore, funding remains a challenge. China might “Gift” some of these birds to PAF for in service evaluation. That remains an open question.

Due to the FC-20 issue; PAF might exercise options for getting more second hand F-16’s from US or other countries to supplement the higher performance force of 60 + planes at fraction of the cost of a new plane. Brand new Block 52’s+ are out of the equation as PAF cannot, at present, bear the cost of these birds. The situation can change if, let us say, KSA steps in an partially foots the bill. I do not think that will happen due to the heavy burden on KSA due to new orders.

As far as the kill switches etc. They come into the equation if we go into an armed conflict like situaiton against the US. That gentlemen is another equation and than we will not be fighting conventional engagment for long -- there will be another dimension to the conflict that I dare visualise.

 

[fatman17]

what you said may only be possible IF PAF selected airframes of her choice which seems very unlikely. Blk 30 & 40s are most widely, not to forget battle used frames that may have very small life left in their airframe. If treated with Falcon Star, then more time and money required. Anyways, lets wait and watch.

if we do receive these 14 odd blk 40's, they will surely be MLU'ed in Turkey.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Duplicate post removing

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

These F16 are symbol of slavery from Americans , we should look forward to JF17 and J10B as our main strike force and build a magnificent Navy and 11,000 KM ICBM

a) USA launched attack on Pakistan at Abbotabad (regardless of what their intention was)
b) They routinely bomb our villages for suspected intelligence which is accurate as timing of Pakistan Railways schedule
c) They attacked and killed 30 Pakistani Soliders in attempted sign of no respect to our national interest


WE SHOULD SAY NO TO F16 of anykind and focus on a Tomorrow with out USA as partner untill their change their forigne policy and their President comes to Pakistan and shows some respect , and NOT DEMAND stuff.

 

[Killswitch]

Iran has been able to operate a large amount of American equipment despite sanctions since 1979.

If the f 16 is important, Pakistan can always use its manufacturing base to reverse engineer and build the spares like Iran has.

 

[Imran Khan]

Iran has been able to operate a large amount of American equipment despite sanctions since 1979.

If the f 16 is important, Pakistan can always use its manufacturing base to reverse engineer and build the spares like Iran has.

but we are not gonna be iran dear nor USA leaving us alone and can't pakistan did like iran supply of parts is not an issue .even worse time of relations US still suppling pakistan f-16 .

 

[Aamir Hussain]

So what should we do? Ground all F-16's, order 60 odd J-10A's (Out of which fund -- I do not know -- offcourse we can now bank upon the largesse of China and creat another US-Pak like situation -- we are good at doing that). And for the next five years try to train our pilots, ground crews etc. and hope to be at par with where we were in 2012 as far as trainnig levels and employment envelope is concerned!!!!! Also in the process hope that the avionics and powerplant issues are resolved and all the goodies (Armaments) that we have already ordered are also incorporated in a jiffy on the new platform(s).

What are you guys sniffing these days???? One does not demonstrate hate for others by chopping off one's own foot!!!

And in the process, once again put all our eggs in one basket. Sane decisions are needed and knee-jerk, jingoist moves will be counter productive, not only from the long term, but also the short term perspective.

 

[All-Green]

These F16 are symbol of slavery from Americans , we should look forward to JF17 and J10B as our main strike force and build a magnificent Navy and 11,000 KM ICBM

a) USA launched attack on Pakistan at Abbotabad (regardless of what their intention was)
b) They routinely bomb our villages for suspected intelligence which is accurate as timing of Pakistan Railways schedule
c) They attacked and killed 30 Pakistani Soliders in attempted sign of no respect to our national interest


WE SHOULD SAY NO TO F16 of anykind and focus on a Tomorrow with out USA as partner untill their change their forigne policy and their President comes to Pakistan and shows some respect , and NOT DEMAND stuff.

So should we let go of F-16 because it is a symbol of slavery, discarding our practical constraints which dictate otherwise to at least keep these birds in service till we are beyond 2020.

Then i have a question for you, what symbolism is your avatar depicting if i may ask?
You are a fan of Top gun and so am I, no slavery in this.
If we see US movies and use US gadgets that is not slavery, similar is the case with US fighter Jets since they are not the reason we are strategically unable to exert ourselves properly.
Yes we can stop watching their movies and stop using Apple products and military products as a symbolic gesture, but will that still solve our problem?

Better off treat it as a a product and that's it, let us use it till other products are mature enough and then do not buy more, simple as that.

In our symbolic protest, we are not going to trash our US made gadgets, household items or clothes but let us instead ground our primary fighter jet.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Right on the bat AG. Fully agree with you.

 

[Dazzler]

i know they will be MULed but my point was under in the context of structural fatigue which is a bit too much on these frames. Falcon Star will help to an extent but not much. Fatigued parts replaced/ overhauled but overall frame age will remain same. The point is, why to even bother to spend hard earned cash while having a dwindling economy, for more used F-16s when they are going to be replaced in a span of 8-12 years anyway (the old frames, obviously)? Wise thing is to go for brand new frames such as JFT and FC-20 that will serve for good 25-35 years with ease.

 

[Imran Khan]

how can in 10 years they are hell old air frames?

In 2002, the US finally stopped trying to sell the aircraft and decided to assign them to the USAF and US Navy to fill the Aggressor role. After the demise of the (T)F-16N aggressor force, the US Navy lacked a high-performance aggressor aircraft. Because of the low airframe life of the embargoed Pakistani F-16s, these airframes were ideally suited for the demanding aggressor role. The 28 aircraft were thus evenly split between the USAF and the US Navy, and will take a vital role in DACT training of US forces.

After the attacks on 9/11 the Pakistani government became a major US ally in the war on terror. It was decided to redeliver those aircraft to Pakistan. Untill now, only half of them has been redelivered, with the remainder still to follow.

 

[SQ8]

how can in 10 years they are hell old air frames?

Ten years of rough usage..
Ten years of constant ACM training and dogfights will tear down an airframe like nobody's business.
Compared to that.. the earlier birds have been through normal wear and tear which is acceptable.

 

[Dazzler]

how can in 10 years they are hell old air frames?

US airforce logs more hours than any other airforce. As Santro said, an aircraft spending 10 years in USAF means it spent atleast 20 years in PAF.

 

[A1Kaid]

Pakistan is receiving 18 new Block 52+ F-16s is false,It's 14 C/D surplus F-16s from American inventory being delivered to Pakistan alongwith MLU jets and 1 Block 52+ serial no. #10801.

Where did your learn that from, source?