Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[araz]

There is a report presented to the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the US Navy that is a must read for anyone who wants to know more about the F-16 MLU and Block 52s offered to Pakistan. It has been posted on this thread many times, but your best bet is to Google it.

This excerpt answers your question:
While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity.

The only way we can extend the loiter-time or mission range of our F-16s is through Aerial Refueling. However, because the F-16s current refueling system is incompatible with the refueling system procured by Pakistan, this is not a possibility. Can we integrate the F-16s with customized refueling system? Possibly, but the move night be objected to since it would require some reverse engineering on the PAF's part.

Now, pretty much every question you guys have has been answered by people far more knowledgeable than I am before. Before posting any more questions, do a search. If you don't find anything, then go ahead and post the question, and we will be more than happy to answer to the best of our abilities.

Edit
Here is the House Committee report:
US House Committee on Foreign Affairs by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the US Navy
Absolute must read for anybody interested in Pakistan's F-16 Block 52 procurement and Mid-Life Upgrades.

PAFace.
i think PAF is very aware of the problems which we will face in case of an all out war. it is also a question of what will be available to us in the way of refuellers and whether it would be worthwhile for us to buy such a capability. i have always maintained that F16s are more of a tech demonstrators(you know what I mean!!!!).Unless the mood in the Congress changes and you know what the thinking is up there. I think at the moment we think we will get the Bl52s first and see how things go. if finances are there and the will is there on the part of US, we may get some more, and more old ones to MLU, but also another factor in the conundrum is the strides that the chinese are making.If they can get their act together especially in case of engines and they are beginning to ge tresults , then there may not be many problems with PAF going all chinese or indegenous with chinese help.The advantages of that are too many to discount. But this is how i see PAF evolving.
there has been talk of PN wanting an airwing of its own, but for pakistan in its current financial situation i dont know whether this will materialize. I personally think resources could be utilized in a better manner.
My 2 paisas worht
Araz

 

[nightrider_saulat]

Night rider
Even humour sometimes involving parents or family is a bad idea. It only needs one to be in a bad mood and before you know it, you have a raging argument over nothing. So please keep family and personal comments out of it.
Kindest regards
Araz

now i accept my mistake........
so leave me now.with my own business in this forum

 

[BATMAN]

PAFace.
i think PAF is very aware of the problems which we will face in case of an all out war. it is also a question of what will be available to us in the way of refuellers and whether it would be worthwhile for us to buy such a capability. i have always maintained that F16s are more of a tech demonstrators(you know what I mean!!!!).Unless the mood in the Congress changes and you know what the thinking is up there. I think at the moment we think we will get the Bl52s first and see how things go. if finances are there and the will is there on the part of US, we may get some more, and more old ones to MLU, but also another factor in the conundrum is the strides that the chinese are making.If they can get their act together especially in case of engines and they are beginning to ge tresults , then there may not be many problems with PAF going all chinese or indegenous with chinese help.The advantages of that are too many to discount. But this is how i see PAF evolving.
there has been talk of PN wanting an airwing of its own, but for pakistan in its current financial situation i dont know whether this will materialize. I personally think resources could be utilized in a better manner.
My 2 paisas worht
Araz

I'm sorry to say it but almost in every post you highlight Pakistan economy and Pakistan stealing technology (in covert words) from F-16!! just with a rephrase.

Let me replay from 10 years ago-- Pakistan's financial situation was 10 times more worst than as of today and till two years ago we were lending help and we even right off Bosnian loan once.
Point is; we have imense potential...... missing is patriotism!
On the issue; last govt. have already paid for the F-16 blk-52.
If US cancel the deal than we can block indian and US transit trade which (conservative) estimate to be of value around 30 billion USD peryear.
Count how many F-16 we can buy with this amount?
If US don't need Pakistan they will not spare a second to withhold our money but apparently this is not the case. Pakistan's military aid can be delayed but it will continue to trickel as long US plan to stay in the region.
All what Pakistan need to do is to hold on to Balauchistan and crack down on insurgents.
Alone this aurgument should help considerably to untie the knots to the riddle you present us almost every time.

 

[Super Falcon]

I'm sorry to say it but almost in every post you highlight Pakistan economy and Pakistan stealing technology (in covert words) from F-16!! just with a rephrase.

Let me replay from 10 years ago-- Pakistan's financial situation was 10 times more worst than as of today and till two years ago we were lending help and we even right off Bosnian loan once.
Point is; we have imense potential...... missing is patriotism!
On the issue; last govt. have already paid for the F-16 blk-52.
If US cancel the deal than we can block indian and US transit trade which (conservative) estimate to be of value around 30 billion USD peryear.
Count how many F-16 we can buy with this amount?
If US don't need Pakistan they will not spare a second to withhold our money but apparently this is not the case. Pakistan's military aid can be delayed but it will continue to trickel as long US plan to stay in the region.
All what Pakistan need to do is to hold on to Balauchistan and crack down on insurgents.
Alone this aurgument should help considerably to untie the knots to the riddle you present us almost every time.

agreed to you hoped u be our minister of interior

 

[araz]

[

QUOTE=BATMAN;642311]I'm sorry to say it but almost in every post you highlight Pakistan economy and Pakistan stealing technology (in covert words) from F-16!!  just with a rephrase.

Batman
My friend have i said anything wrong. Pakistani economy is in tatters and your proud production ie JF17 has been likened to a "Mini F16 " by many.I have despaired at the state of our economy for decades. however, I am realistic rather than overly optimistic. While no one has denied the potential that pakistan has, its realization has not happened. If you talk to the people who are in world finance, they would point out how data has been fudged and glossed over even during musharraf era to paint a much rosier picture than it actually is. You might also want to look over your neighbours and realize that while our bubble has burst pretty quickly, India nad China have gone from strength to strength, even in the times of the recession.
The status of F16 and their significance is also an open secret. What do you hope to achieve with 18 aircrafts? I am sure MuradK and other PAF people will tell you that it was nothing other than international "Ghunda Gardi" that made us buy F16s. We therefore counterparried by buying just the 18. Thois is the long and short of it.

[B]Let me replay from 10 years ago-- Pakistan's financial situation was 10 times more worst than as of today and till two years ago we were lending help and we even right off Bosnian loan once.
Point is; we have imense potential...... missing is patriotism![/B]

Dont argue with that , but what we also seem to have is a lot of gas. We are overconfident of our potential and are just not willing to make the necessary changes to root out our basic deficiencies. Education is lacking, general awareness is nonexistant, infrastructure is infnatile, sure we have made strides due to a sense of self preservation, but have we done as well as we should have had__ NO!! It is a testament of our political and moral terpitude that after 60 yrs we are still wishing for marshall law to come and save us from our own leaders, not realizing that unless we decide on a course and stick with it, we will never get anywhere.

[B]On the issue; last govt. have already paid for the F-16 blk-52.
If US cancel the deal than we can block indian and US transit trade which (conservative) estimate to be of value around 30 billion USD peryear.[/B]

Paying for the f16s, was done as people made money out of it. Do you think we were so naive as to not see what happened to us the last time and yet we kept on paying for the F16s that we never got, and on top of that why do you think we never took the US Govtt to the International Courts. There are lots of things that cannot be discussed on the open forum but suffice it to say that we have been run into the ground by so many people whom we regard as our heroes.As to blocking the transit trade, when you are sittingintheir lap and eating out of their handswhatever they want ot feed you,do you think your leaders have the guts to do this.Waht do you think will happen when America exerts its pressure and clamps down on your financial aid and closes its market to your produce. how much will you lose? Life doesn't flow one way, it always flows both ways.

Count how many F-16 we can buy with this amount?

Zero. You wont buy jack if they dont give you the nod!!

[B]If US don't need Pakistan they will not spare a second to withhold our money but apparently this is not the case. Pakistan's military aid can be delayed but it will continue to trickel as long US plan to stay in the region.[/B]

Agreed but again case in point, what have you gotten pout of the US and what have you given away.Do you still think it was a great deal??

All what Pakistan need to do is to hold on to Balauchistan and crack down on insurgents.

OH the naivity of it all!! Who created the so called terrorists and what was their grief with Pakistan? Do you think you are doing well with 30,000 of your forces residing yet not controlling fully the problems you have in that area. Do you honestly believe they will go away once your forces have taken over the area and restored order.What happens then?? have you ever thought of the next step. believe me if the means of provision of a livelihood are not provided to those people, you will be palying the same game again a few yrs from now!!
Baluychistanis another story of gross mismanagement of a land whose local populace has been denied their right. Do you know what Zardari was demanding as his share to release the funds that the centre owes to baluchistan?? believe me noone is taking it away, your own mismanafgemnt and kackhandedness is handing it over to any taker on a silver platter. You really need to talk to people who know what the real story is..

[B]Alone this aurgument should help considerably to untie the knots to the riddle you present us almost every time.[/QUOTE[/B]

]
I present no riddle and no pearls of wisdom .i am like you, i express an opinion to which you may or may not agree. As it happens, and I magrateful to those that do, i have a few friends who listen to me.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

^^Hello Mr.
I don't want to go lengths on issues which had been discussed thousand times. We don't seem to agree on political issues and i think we never will be... becasue apparently our facts and interests don't match.
Few unwaranted things from your post which i would definately like to rebut as a matter of record.
1-No one made money out of last F-16 deal.
2-I spoke of breach of agreement / sale deed once payments are made. FYI, only indian and US transit trade are subject to node.
3- Pakistan cannot afford luxuries like time and money to spend on hiring, training, arming and lodging terrorists... but as i said above, you may have reasons for your claim but i would continue to trust ISPR statements for reasons which are good to me.
Rest i withhold my reply to your false tale on Balauchistan affairs but since you seem to be quite offended for my suggestion on INSURGENTS (operating in side Baluchistan) i extend my sympathies on your sorrow state.

Lets go back to the topic. cheers

 

[araz]

^^Hello Mr.
I don't want to go lengths on issues which had been discussed thousand times. We don't seem to agree on political issues and i think we never will be... becasue apparently our facts and interests don't match.
Few unwaranted things from your post which i would definately like to rebut as a matter of record.
1-No one made money out of last F-16 deal.
2-I spoke of breach of agreement / sale deed once payments are made. FYI, only indian and US transit trade are subject to node.
3- Pakistan cannot afford luxuries like time and money to spend on hiring, training, arming and lodging terrorists... but as i said above, you may have reasons for your claim but i would continue to trust ISPR statements for reasons which are good to me.
Rest i withhold my reply to your false tale on Balauchistan affairs but since you seem to be quite offended for my suggestion on INSURGENTS (operating in side Baluchistan) i extend my sympathies on your sorrow state.

Lets go back to the topic. cheers

Batman
I have a name , it is nice to call someone by his name. Calling someone Mr. is not considered a good thing. . However, I do not say things without reason and my sources, are sound. So lets just leave it at that. My Sorrow state as you put it is related to the state of my country for which my family and indeed i have made sacrifices in our own rights.Believe me i am not in UK by choice. You are perhaps right . we should leave things as such
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Imran Khan]

for both of my respected sir as we say lets agree on disagree.i love you both and don't wanna see problims between my respected loving persons. sir ARAZ and sir BATMAN finish it here .its reqest from a younger brother of both of you. thanks alot.

 

[TOPGUN]

I agree with Imran both you guys need to patch up .. we all are diff perhaps thats why we all have diff views and answers and thoughts so lets kill this thing here as per also request from me thx.

 

[araz]

I agree with Imran both you guys need to patch up .. we all are diff perhaps thats why we all have diff views and answers and thoughts so lets kill this thing here as per also request from me thx.

Bhai
I have no problems with batman or any other member of the forum. I would go to the extent of saying if I have said something that has annoyed Batman, i am sorry. However, I will stand by what I say and that should not be a problem to any one. This is the end of it all from me. I will not make any further posts in relation to this matter.
Araz

 

[TOPGUN]

Bhai
I have no problems with batman or any other member of the forum. I would go to the extent of saying if I have said something that has annoyed Batman, i am sorry. However, I will stand by what I say and that should not be a problem to any one. This is the end of it all from me. I will not make any further posts in relation to this matter.
Araz

Understood brother .. i respect that

 

[mean_bird]

PAF F-16D with JHMCS

Also note the F-35 in the background


picture credit to M. Asif.
Xposted from pakdef

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

PAF F-16D with JHMCS

Also note the F-35 in the background


picture credit to M. Asif.
Xposted from pakdef

yup this is what pilot is wearing

u can see this here as well

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

what the hek Morocco air force copy,the PAF f16 camo.
basicly offered by Lockheed martin
isnt it there any copyright rule for this.

 

[Aeri-Eye]

One question, a bit off topic but i can't seem to find any other place to ask this question.

Our old F-16s are suppose to go through MLU's, i have been hearing this since last 2-3 years. PAF is going to spend around $2bln (right?) on this project but yet not a single aircraft has gone through MLU (is it?). When is this project going to complete? How long is it going to take?