Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020"

[Yasser76]

Apologies. My mistake. Maybe I need a visit to SpecSavers myself.

No worries, although I am sure the Chinese would love to engage with our Vipers, as they would be facing quite a few of them during any conflict with Tawain

 

[KurtisBrian]

Why would Pakistan want the J-10? Doesn't it fit a similar role as the F-16 and JF-17?
With the new radars and updates your new Jf-17 block 3 will be just as good as J-10, right?

Sorry, just a bunch of questions. But if Pakistan wants more and different jets shouldn't they go with something heavier and longer range? It just seems to me you would be doubling or tripling up on one thing while you don't really have any of a different sort.

 

[The Eagle]

China has deployed J-11B heavyweight air superiority fighters and its new J-10C ‘4++ generation’ multirole jets as part of a contingent participating in joint drills with the Pakistani Air Force under the Shaheen IX exercises. China’s Assistant Chief of Staff, People’s Liberation Army (PLA)) Air Force Major General Sun Hong attended the opening ceremony of the exercises, announcing: “The joint exercise will improve the actual level of combat training and strengthen practical cooperation between the two air forces”. Welcoming the Chinese contingent, Pakistani Air Vice Marshal Waqas Ahmed Sulehri said: “The joint exercise will provide an opportunity to further enhance interoperability of both the air forces, fortifying brotherly relations between the two countries”. The exercise began just a week after Chinese State Councillor and Defense Minister Wei Fenghe met with Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan and President Arif Alvi during a visit to the country. The two have a long history of joint exercises and close military cooperation, with Pakistan’s armed forces increasingly recant on Chinese military hardware and recently ordering Type 054 frigates, VT-4 battle tanks, JF-17 fighter jets, PL-12 air to air missiles and Type 039 submarines among others.

Chinese J-11B Heavyweight Fighter




The J-10C and J-11B are two of the more capable fighters in the Chinese fleet, and the most formidable ever to have been deployed for exercises abroad. Both aircraft are significantly more capable than those in Pakistani service, with the elite of the Pakistani Air Force comprised of basic fourth generation lightweight designs - namely the JF-17 and F-16. The J-11B has over double the engine power of any Pakistani fighter, and is one of the most widely operated fighters in Chinese service. Many of the fighters have recently been upgraded to the J-11BG standard, which has included equipping them with AESA radars, new avionics and electronic warfare systems and a range of new weaponry. The J-11 is notably derived from the Soviet Su-27 Flanker design, which was also the basis for development of the Su-30MKI fighter that is currently the most capable in the Indian fleet. The J-11BG has notable advantages in situational awareness and weaponry over the Indian fighter however.

Chinese J-10C '4++ Generation' Fighter



The J-10C is one of the latest additions to the PLA Air Force’s fighter fleet, joining in the spring of 2018 and representing the world’s very first ‘4++ generation’ lightweight fighter. Alongside its American rival thee F-35, it its considered one of the two most capable single engine fighters in the world today and benefits from a range of very high end technologies. These include stealth features and radar absorbent coatings, as well as a powerful AESA radar, state of the art data links, AESA radar guided PL-15 long range missiles and PL-10 high off-boresight infrared homing missiles. The J-10C’s combination of a light but durable high composite airframe and powerful WS-10B engines provides an extreme degree of manoeuvrability with few rivals in the world. The fighter’s sophistication allows it to go head to head with much heaver aircraft on favourable terms, including the J-11B, Su-30MKI and even the Su-35 which Russia has marketed to India.

Pakistani Air Force JF-17B Light Fighter



Participating on the Pakistani side were JF-17, J-7 and older Mirage III fighters, the latter two being very lightweight third generation designs which are expected to begin to be phased out of service over the coming decade. A number of unverified reports have indicated that Pakistan is considering acquiring the J-10C to form elite new fighter units, and while the jets are more expensive and cost more to operate than the JF-17 their performance advantages could make this worthwhile. The Pakistani Air Force is currently expecting to receive its first fighters with capabilities above those of the standard fourth generation - namely the JF-17 Block 3 which benefits from many of the same technologies as the J-10C including similar avionics and access to PL-15 missiles.

Elite Chinese Fighters in Pakistan For Shaheen IX Exercises: How Powerful Are The J-10C and J-11B Jets? (militarywatchmagazine.com)

You know that we have an existing thread. Please don't create multiple threads for the same subject as it results in loss of information, discussion or even interesting photos.

 

[Air Wolf]

Why would Pakistan want the J-10? Doesn't it fit a similar role as the F-16 and JF-17?
With the new radars and updates your new Jf-17 block 3 will be just as good as J-10, right?

Sorry, just a bunch of questions. But if Pakistan wants more and different jets shouldn't they go with something heavier and longer range? It just seems to me you would be doubling or tripling up on one thing while you don't really have any of a different sort.

Maybe the upgrades have some strings attached.

 

[Xone]

Why would Pakistan want the J-10? Doesn't it fit a similar role as the F-16 and JF-17?
With the new radars and updates your new Jf-17 block 3 will be just as good as J-10, right?

J-10C is far more advanced, more powerful engine with powerful radar.better Load carrying capability as compared to JF-17 thunder. Pakistan is on the waiting list for 2 years. Jf-17 and J10C will be very much similar in technology once It comes out of this Long wait. But regarding engine and radar, along with payload, both have different capacity. J10C is more advanced than Our Block 52 F16.of which Pakistan can only dream with no more practical chance of its coming. J10C will be complementary to JF17 as was F16 in the past.

 

[KurtisBrian]

J-10C is far more advanced, more powerful engine with powerful radar.better Load carrying capability as compared to JF-17 thunder. Pakistan is on the waiting list for 2 years. Jf-17 and J10C will be very much similar in technology once It comes out of this Long wait. But regarding engine and radar, along with payload, both have different capacity. J10C is more advanced than Our Block 52 F16.of which Pakistan can only dream with no more practical chance of its coming. J10C will be complementary to JF17 as was F16 in the past.

okay thanks. Could you explain to me why Pakistan wouldn't prefer something like the J-16 or Su-35?

 

[_NOBODY_]

okay thanks. Could you explain to me why Pakistan wouldn't prefer something like the J-16 or Su-35?

J-16 can't be sold. Su-35 doesn't even have an AESA radar and it recently got raped by J-10C in BVR and dogfight. Su-35 is only good as a strike aircraft. Russians didn't allow the integration of Chinese systems and armaments on Su-35 when PAF approached them.

 

[Xone]

the J-16 or Su-35?

Both may be Pipe dreams for Pakistan in the present scenario. None of either option is applicable.

 

[MastanKhan]

Why would Pakistan want the J-10? Doesn't it fit a similar role as the F-16 and JF-17?
With the new radars and updates your new Jf-17 block 3 will be just as good as J-10, right?

Sorry, just a bunch of questions. But if Pakistan wants more and different jets shouldn't they go with something heavier and longer range? It just seems to me you would be doubling or tripling up on one thing while you don't really have any of a different sort.

Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. If you understood what INTEGRATION means and how much time it takes to integrate---you would not be making this statement.

The J-10 is fully operational with weapons and EW systems integrated---.

The JF17 BLK3 has to be produced---then EW package installed and integrated and gone thru rigorous testing and then weapons integration---and pilot training.

This is a minimum of 5 years and generally a 10 years time frame job or maybe even more.

 

[KurtisBrian]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. If you understood what INTEGRATION means and how much time it takes to integrate---you would not be making this statement.

The J-10 is fully operational with weapons and EW systems integrated---.

The JF17 BLK3 has to be produced---then EW package installed and integrated and gone thru rigorous testing and then weapons integration---and pilot training.

This is a minimum of 5 years and generally a 10 years time frame job or maybe even more.

hello
You are correct. I didn't (and still don't) understand. Seems to me one can be an upgrade of a jet and system that the pilots already know. The other is a new jet and system that the pilots have no experience of.

In part, asked my question because I look at a nation like the USA. The USAF has ONE lighter multi-role fighter jet...F-16, they upgrade it. They have one heavy weight air superiority/strike fighter, the F-15, they upgrade it. With Stealth jets they do the same thing. With the J-10, Pakistan would have 3 kinds of lighter multi-role jets and no heavy strike fighters.

So, I guess my uninformed civilian thinking just comes from what I see the Americans do. Russia, India and Arab nations seem to accumulate lots of different air frames all doing the same role. Different cultures.

 

[Xone]

he J-10 is fully operational with weapons and EW systems integrated---.

The JF17 BLK3 has to be produced--

IMO, both the planes are under continual development almost in Parallel. Which ever comes first have some more advanced features than the second. J-10C is on the field while JF-17B3 is on the table. So it means Coming JF-17b3 will have some more advanced gadgets than j10c in present form. Had Pakistan more advance in-house facilities JF-17B3 would have much more rapid speed what we are witnessing now.
Any how, Block building approach is considered being the best, for rapid iteration, and faster development. If J10c took almost 3 years to fully deploying its weaponry, then Jeff will also take less time to go fully operational.
I always cherish your valuable inputs, and feedback based on long experience.

 

[Riz]

In Shaheen-VII 2018, PAF had found that the old tactics of JF-17 were meaningless to against J-10C.

There u goes JF-17 lovers

 

[KurtisBrian]

There u goes JF-17 lovers

Is the jf-17 going to fight the J-10? Is that Pakistani intention? If not then wouldn't it be more relevant to compare jf-17 performance and tactics to the kinds of planes India has?

 

[Xone]

Is the jf-17 going to fight the J-10? Is that Pakistani intention? If not then wouldn't it be more relevant to compare jf-17 performance and tactics to the kinds of planes India has?

Of course yes, Lots of wars, to polish and perfect the tactics to the utmost. These fights take place with friends and foes, daily round the year. Perfection.comes with practice. The JF-17 and J-10
are going to be hand in hand against their rivals in the war at hand.

 

[MastanKhan]

hello
You are correct. I didn't (and still don't) understand. Seems to me one can be an upgrade of a jet and system that the pilots already know. The other is a new jet and system that the pilots have no experience of.

In part, asked my question because I look at a nation like the USA. The USAF has ONE lighter multi-role fighter jet...F-16, they upgrade it. They have one heavy weight air superiority/strike fighter, the F-15, they upgrade it. With Stealth jets they do the same thing. With the J-10, Pakistan would have 3 kinds of lighter multi-role jets and no heavy strike fighters.

So, I guess my uninformed civilian thinking just comes from what I see the Americans do. Russia, India and Arab nations seem to accumulate lots of different air frames all doing the same role. Different cultures.

Hi,

The AESA radar--the heart and soul of the JF17 BLK 3 wuld be a totally new item---.

Now---the first part is to integrate the aesa and live thru its integration pain---ie the in flight testing---.

Then there is teaching the pilots to operate and use aesa radar---which by my knowledge and available everywhere---the pilots would be made to forget how they used the non aesa radar---and will have to learn a totally different system---how to operate manage and fight.

It is not like going from one state of windows operating system to the next.

Over a decade ago when I wrote about it on this forum---there were a lots of people making fun of what I wrote---but most are learning now---.

The view of the air battle front will completely take a 180* turn and that would be time consuming to adjust to---.

Just for example---in our personal daily lives---we learn something new--okay---over a period of time we get used to it---but then one day---we are tired---the day is stressful and suddenly we momentarily revert back to the old thing that we did---.

See---the americans are just installing aesa radar in theF15's and F16's---. So these pilots will be re-trained---.

The F22 and f35 pilots had to go thru that training years ago---and according to some---it was not fun---. Just to wipe the slate clean---of how to do air combat the conventional way---to doing air combat with aesa radar---.

On of the most important thing to un-learn for these pilots was " not to merge "---fight from a position of strength----ie BVR fight and then turn and run after the BVR load is used up---which was just the opposite of what they had learnt all their lives---.

It was just like asking the local street fighter to stop using his fists and learn to be a sniper---.

IMO, both the planes are under continual development almost in Parallel. Which ever comes first have some more advanced features than the second. J-10C is on the field while JF-17B3 is on the table. So it means Coming JF-17b3 will have some more advanced gadgets than j10c in present form. Had Pakistan more advance in-house facilities JF-17B3 would have much more rapid speed what we are witnessing now.
Any how, Block building approach is considered being the best, for rapid iteration, and faster development. If J10c took almost 3 years to fully deploying its weaponry, then Jeff will also take less time to go fully operational.
I always cherish your valuable inputs, and feedback based on long experience.

Hi,

Thank you---. With the induction of aesa radar---you will have to separare the haves and have nots---.

Those pilots who will have aesa equipped machines and those who will not---. These are now two separate entities with a totally different fight plan.

So---while inducting the BLK3---the Paf will have to swirtch all the JF17's to aesa equipped radar and have only one training guideline for the future upcoming young and mature pilots---.

Which means---that by default of the change---the F16's would become obsolete---maybe at a faster pace than we are anticipating now---which could be inversely protional to our induction of aesa radar as wellas that of the enemy's induction as well.

The thing with the J10's development is that china is focussed on what it needs to do---it truly understands the level of unseen and seen threats it is facing and will face---.

OTOH---Paf is oblivious to the visible threats and taking the level of threat very very lightly---.