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Pakistan & China in 1.4 billion dollar J-10 jet deal

News is not Reliable especially when talking abt Military Time Line.

So Far we dont know if JXX even exists. Unconfirmed
PAK FA Can fly any day.. Prototype is Ready . Confirmed
The deputy commander of the Chinese airforce has already stated that J-XX is scheduled to fly in the next two years, with induction in about 8 to 10. This was a TV interview watched by millions I mind you. That's about as confirmed as it could possibly get.

Russian stated PAK FA will fly in 2006, then it was 2007, then it was 2008, then it was 2009, and now they tell us it's definitely 2010. I don't know about you, but I'm seeing a pattern here. The Russians have been hit hard by the economic crisis, and their oil export based economy can't generate enough revenues to keep their current forces up to date let alone put money into research.
 
J-10s For Pakistan
November 12, 2009: China has agreed to sell Pakistan it's domestically designed J-10 fighter. China and Pakistan have also jointly developed the JF-17, and Pakistan is buying up to 300 of these. The J-10 is, on paper, superior to the JF-17. Pakistan would like to buy up to a hundred J-10s, but that will depend on whether the cash will be available. The first 36 J-10s bought will cost close to $39 million each (with spare parts and maintenance support.)

China only publicly announced the J-10s status in January, 2007. What was not mentioned in the press releases was that only one J-10 squadron was stationed where it might encounter Taiwanese F-16s or Mirage jet fighters. That squadron is sitting at a base just out of range (560 kilometers) of the F-16s and Mirages. The Taiwanese believe that their pilots are much better trained than their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, the word out of China is that the J-10 is a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers.

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)

Pakistan already has eight JF-17 fighters, which it has received over the last two years. Earlier this year, it signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1). Azerbaijan, Sudan and Zimbabwe have ordered the aircraft, or are negotiating to. Pakistan will replace its MiG-21s and Mirage IIIs with the low cost JF-17s.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 uses the same Russian engine, the RD-93, that is used in the MiG-29. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers. At one time, there was a serious a snag because the Russians did not want to allow the JF-17s to go to Pakistan with Russian engines. Negotiations resolved this problem, aided by the current peace talks between India (a long time Russian customer) and Pakistan.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 55,000 feet. China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped. China is still relatively new to aircraft design and development. To further complicate things, China is trying to keep up with aircraft technology that continues to advance, year by year. Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain, and do not function as effectively as the designers hoped. But both aircraft work, and can probably be more useful for ground support, than air superiority. Pakistan hopes to make the J-10 and JF-17 more lethal by using more experienced pilots. That often works.
 
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the chinese plane is still in development phase and no one knows how many years it will take for the first test but india plane will be inducted in numbers by 2017

actually in the interview out recently the first flight should happen "soon" and is said to be inducted 8-10 years from now(2017-2019) if we take in the history of the j-10 into context(start of service vs announcement) it'll probably be in service around 2015-ish, i feel that the successful completion of the ws-15 will be important to sticking to the timeline
 
IAF unperturbed by reports of China selling jets to Pak

New Delhi, Nov 13 (PTI) Unperturbed by reports of China selling 36 advanced fighter jets to Pakistan or plans to launch an intelligence satellite, the IAF today said there was "nothing to worry" as Indian armed forces were capable of protecting country's interest.

"Do not worry and do not make people worry. Our country is strong enough. Our Army, Navy and Air Force are capable of looking after the interest of our country," IAF Chief P V Naik told reporters here on the sidelines of an aerospace medicine seminar.

He was responding to queries if the Chinese selling J-10 fighter jets to Pakistan and their plans to launch an intelligence satellite soon was a worry to India.

"When a sovereign country interacts with another country, there is no issue over selling weapons. It is up to them," he said on the fighter jet sales.
 
actually in the interview out recently the first flight should happen "soon" and is said to be inducted 8-10 years from now(2017-2019) if we take in the history of the j-10 into context(start of service vs announcement) it'll probably be in service around 2015-ish, i feel that the successful completion of the ws-15 will be important to sticking to the timeline

Yap i am really looking forward for WS-15 :china::tup:
 
Sorry but I have to contend that point, contrary to popular belief, the J-10 is NOT the most advanced fighter in our inventory. The J-11 is much more developed, with lower radar signatures+higher maneuverability. On top of that, its avionics are better and more advanced too. The J-10 is a show off, the J-11 is the real deal.

In saying J-11, I mean our indigeneous J-11, not the Su-27.

As for Russia? #$#%$%3
J11 has a lower RCS than J10? How did that happen?
J10 is a new design, is way smaller and should use much RAM coatings. J11 instead is a copy of an older Russian Su 27 design with some improvements. If J11 has really a lower RCS, somebody made a big mistake in designing J10 don't you think?
Also J10 has delta carnard design and is rumored to get Russian, or Chines engine with TVC, so how can it be less maneuverable than J11?
 
J11 has a lower RCS than J10? How did that happen?
J10 is a new design, is way smaller and should use much RAM coatings. J11 instead is a copy of an older Russian Su 27 design with some improvements. If J11 has really a lower RCS, somebody made a big mistake in designing J10 don't you think?
Also J10 has delta carnard design and is rumored to get Russian, or Chines engine with TVC, so how can it be less maneuverable than J11?

J-10 has lower RCS than J-11B,J-10B still under test,J-11B has already mass-produced
J10:3㎡
J11B:3-5㎡
other statistics all better than J-10
it's very likely j-10A will replace J-7 in the next 5 years.J-10B,J-11B and J-XX will be the main forces for PLAAF in the next 20 years

you may find some answers in these photos:




http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/38476-foreign-military-leaders-get-first-glimpse-chinas-sophisticated-aircraft.html
 
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J-10 has lower than J-11B,J-10B still under test,J-11B has already mass-produced
J10:3㎡
J11B:3-5㎡
other statistics all better than J-10
it's very likely j-10A will replace J-7 in the next 5 years.J-10B,J-11B and J-XX will be the main forces for PLAAF in the next 20 years

you may find some answers in these photos:
well why will PLAAF would like to have a "all star cast" there must be light and easy to maintain ACs in ristricted roles as well. No you can't have all of your AF flying expensive and maintenance intensive birds.
 
India is having LCA, MCA and Pak FA Project if you do not know.

firstly, LCA is a third generation jet, and it is still under testing, but both J-10 and FC-1 are already in the air.
secondly, MCA is only a plan, a plan on the paper. however, the Chinese j-XX project is confirmed by the general of AF, and "it will have the first-fly soon, and equiped in 8-10 years"
thirdly, Pak FA is not a Indian project, that's a Russ 5th Gen fighter, you just provide the money, that's it.
 
firstly, LCA is a third generation jet, and it is still under testing, but both J-10 and FC-1 are already in the air.
secondly, MCA is only a plan, a plan on the paper. however, the Chinese j-XX project is confirmed by the general of AF, and "it will have the first-fly soon, and equiped in 8-10 years"
thirdly, Pak FA is not a Indian project, that's a Russ 5th Gen fighter, you just provide the money, that's it.


Genious..your first post on the forum suggested how much knowledge you have...i hope when you say LCA is a third generation you meant 3rd as per chinese versioning but 4 as per western versioning..right???

and then india providing just money for PAK FA....ummmm i would suggest please read there are many threads on this forum where all these things have been discussed in details...

Anyways welcome to the forum....:pdf:
 
firstly, LCA is a third generation jet, and it is still under testing, but both J-10 and FC-1 are already in the air.

Nope, Its Not . Though i think LCA and JF17 are quite equal but see This List :

Gen 4 Fighters ::

Fourth generation jet fighters

Fourth generation fighters had a renewed focus on maneuverability and many were again designed with an internal gun armament.

* France
o Dassault Mirage 2000/2000N/2000D

* Japan
o Mitsubishi F-2

* People's Republic of China
o Chengdu J-10A/S[1]
o Shenyang J-11A 'Flanker'

* People's Republic of China / Pakistan
o JF-17 'Thunder' / Chengdu FC-1 'Owlet Dragon' [2] [3]


* Republic of China
o AIDC ****-1 Ching-kuo

* Soviet Union - Russia

Gen 4.5 Fighters ::

4.5th generation jet fighters

This "half generation" is a term defined by the United States Government as fourth generation aircraft that have vastly improved avionics (digital fly-by-wire), sensors (Active Electronically Scanned Array radars), high speed data links and the ability to carry the latest weapons.[5] Some sources refer to some members of this group as fourth or 4++ generation aircraft instead.

* France
o Dassault Rafale (With Thales RBE2 AESA in 2012)[6]
* Russia
o Mikoyan MiG-29K 'Fulcrum D' (With digital fly-by-wire,Radar signature reduction measures and Zhuk-AE AESA upgrade in development)
o Mikoyan MiG-31BM (With Zaslon-M PESA)
o Sukhoi Su-32/34 'Fullback' (only PESA)
o Sukhoi Su-35 'Flanker E' (only PESA)
* Russia / India
o Su-30MKI 'Flanker H' (AESA upgrade in 2014)
* Russia / People's Republic of China
o Su-30MKK/MK2 'Flanker G' (PESA upgrade being considered)
* Sweden
o Saab 39 'Gripen' (With Finmeccanica-Selex radar)
* United Kingdom / Germany / Italy / Spain
o Eurofighter Typhoon (with Captor-E)
* United States
o McDonnell Douglas / Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle(CAS provides only partial fly-by-wire and AN/APG-82(V)1 upgrade in development)
o Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60
o Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
In Development

* People's Republic of China
o Chengdu J-10B(maiden flight achieved in 2008)[1]
o Shenyang J-11B/BS
* India
o Tejas(Needs radar, perhaps the EL/M-2052 AESA)
* South Korea

o KF-X(Introduction designated to be around 2020)
* Russia
o Mikoyan MiG-35 'Fulcrum F'(maiden flight achieved in 2007)
* United States
o McDonnell Douglas / Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle(maiden flight planned for 2010)

LCA seems Ahead.
So its safe to assume they are in Same Generation.

secondly, MCA is only a plan, a plan on the paper. however, the Chinese j-XX project is confirmed by the general of AF, and "it will have the first-fly soon, and equiped in 8-10 years"

MCA is Not the Rival of JXX which will lag by atleast 5-10 years behind PAK-FA
MCA is not a threat to PLAAF, PAK-FA is, whose prototype is going to be ready by 2010 to make its maiden flight.
PLAAF will definitely lag by 5 Years when it will come to Gen 5 Fighters as IAF will have it by 2017-2020.

thirdly, Pak FA is not a Indian project, that's a Russ 5th Gen fighter, you just provide the money, that's it.

Actually India will not Buy PAK-FA, Its FGFA.
FGFA will have ::
  • Indian Avionics
  • Indian Softwares
  • Dual Seat Interface
The Dual Seat Interface was a deliberate move to get back to drawing board so that Indian engineers may have a share to cooperate and design the plane.

So u see Its More than Just Money.
 
Nope, Its Not . Though i think LCA and JF17 are quite equal but see This List :

Gen 4 Fighters ::

Gen 4.5 Fighters ::

LCA seems Ahead.
So its safe to assume they are in Same Generation.
So you are telling me that LCA, still under testing, is superior to JF-17 despite the fact that JF-17 has finished testing for 3 years and is being inducted into Pakistan. I have this paper airplane in testing phrase and it's superior to F-22. Just take my word for it. Where did you find that list? Wikipedia?

MCA is Not the Rival of JXX which will lag by atleast 5-10 years behind PAK-FA
MCA is not a threat to PLAAF, PAK-FA is, whose prototype is going to be ready by 2010 to make its maiden flight.
PLAAF will definitely lag by 5 Years when it will come to Gen 5 Fighters as IAF will have it by 2017-2020.
Deputy commander of the PLAAF stated that China's 5th gen is 8 to 10 years away from being introduced, so I don't know why you keep on saying China will lag behind for 5 years without basis. Every year since 2006, Russian have stated that their PAK-FA will fly. Yet as we enter 2010 and still nothing. Given the pattern, I'd say Russians will break their 2010 promoise too.

Actually India will not Buy PAK-FA, Its FGFA.
FGFA will have ::
  • Indian Avionics
  • Indian Softwares
  • Dual Seat Interface
The Dual Seat Interface was a deliberate move to get back to drawing board so that Indian engineers may have a share to cooperate and design the plane.p

So u see Its More than Just Money.
So you are telling me that nevermind the fact that LCA still hasn't enter service or requires heavy foreign assistance, India will experience a sudden great leap forward in technology that allows them to produce an indigenious 5th generation aircraft.

Sorry if I don't buy into that story. You guys didn't exactly have a stellar history when it comes to weapon development, i.e Arjun and LCA.
 
i dont think soo they have prob with investement for J 10 remember J 10 is *** fighter jet of chinese airforce and it is in mass production the probleum is countries decided to buy it but have not seriously made any steps to buy it
 

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