Pakistan & China in 1.4 billion dollar J-10 jet deal

[MZUBAIR]

30 A/C per year is NOT a Joke.



Even May Be says 25.

I didnt doubt the Numbers i doubt the Unrealistic RATE OF PRODUCTION.
Thank You.

Thats the perfect answer for u....taken the note from todays news paper.



With this Ratio, we will get 40 JF-17 till the end of 2010. (Avg production is 30 units per annum)

 

[Tomahawk]

Russia has developed an improved engine for J-10 capable of TVC.
If any of our Chinese member could confirm the type of engine that will be used in J-10s for Pakistan.
Will it be AL-31FN (without TVC) or AL-31FN M1 (with TVC)?

From Sinodefence:
"Salyut has also introduced an improved version of the AL-31FN, featuring a fully variable, all-aspect thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle and an increased afterburning thrust of 124.54kN (12,700kg, 27,998lb). Currently Salyut is actively marketing the engine to China, but it is not known whether this engine will be fitted on future production J-10 fighters."

From another source:
"The more highly powered and advanced variant of the J-10, the Super-10, first reported in 2006, is fitted with the AL-31FN M1 supplied by Salyut. The AL-31FN M1 provides 132.5kN and is equipped with full authority digital engine control and a four-way swivelling exhaust nozzle for vectored thrust."

 

[TaimiKhan]

Russia has developed an improved engine for J-10 capable of TVC.
If any of our Chinese member could confirm the type of engine that will be used in J-10s for Pakistan.
Will it be AL-31FN (without TVC) or AL-31FN M1 (with TVC)?

From Sinodefence:
"Salyut has also introduced an improved version of the AL-31FN, featuring a fully variable, all-aspect thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle and an increased afterburning thrust of 124.54kN (12,700kg, 27,998lb). Currently Salyut is actively marketing the engine to China, but it is not known whether this engine will be fitted on future production J-10 fighters."

From another source:
"The more highly powered and advanced variant of the J-10, the Super-10, first reported in 2006, is fitted with the AL-31FN M1 supplied by Salyut. The AL-31FN M1 provides 132.5kN and is equipped with full authority digital engine control and a four-way swivelling exhaust nozzle for vectored thrust."

The engine for FC-20 is not yet known, problem with any russian engine would be the one which we faced with RD-93, Indian hue & cry, whining and possible NO from Russia as J-10 would be a good match to Indian fighter jets. And the problems faced from Russian companies supporting their tech is known. Its still many years for FC-20 to come and news about Chinese WS-10A is still positive, hopefully by the time we get FC-20, it will be up and running, as China is itself very much dependent on Russian engines for all of its 4th gen aircrafts and they eagerly want to get rid of this dependence.

My bet is we would be seeing a Chinese engine on FC-20, Russia allowing theirs for first 36 batch is a possibility but miracle to be in other words.

 

[Tomahawk]

The engine for FC-20 is not yet known, problem with any russian engine would be the one which we faced with RD-93, Indian hue & cry, whining and possible NO from Russia as J-10 would be a good match to Indian fighter jets. And the problems faced from Russian companies supporting their tech is known. Its still many years for FC-20 to come and news about Chinese WS-10A is still positive, hopefully by the time we get FC-20, it will be up and running, as China is itself very much dependent on Russian engines for all of its 4th gen aircrafts and they eagerly want to get rid of this dependence.

My bet is we would be seeing a Chinese engine on FC-20, Russia allowing theirs for first 36 batch is a possibility but miracle to be in other words.

India would keep objecting to our every defence procurement as it traditionally does, just as you mentioned the case of RD-93 engines for JF-17s.
As far as Chinese WS-10A engine is concerned, its thrust is significantly less than AL-31FN, which will affect the aerodynamic performance of J-10.

"The WS-10A is slightly larger than the AL-31F in size. The engine is reportedly rated at 73.5kN (7,495kg, 16,523lb) dry and 110kN (11,217kg, 24,729 lb) with afterburning, which may result in slightly reduced aerodynamic performance in the WS-10A-equipped J-10."

 

[TaimiKhan]

India would keep objecting to our every defence procurement as it traditionally does, just as you mentioned the case of RD-93 engines for JF-17s.
As far as Chinese WS-10A engine is concerned, its thrust is significantly less than AL-31FN, which will affect the aerodynamic performance of J-10.

"The WS-10A is slightly larger than the AL-31F in size. The engine is reportedly rated at 73.5kN (7,495kg, 16,523lb) dry and 110kN (11,217kg, 24,729 lb) with afterburning, which may result in slightly reduced aerodynamic performance in the WS-10A-equipped J-10."

WS-10A is comparable to AL-31F.

Read the article pasted in below link, will give you a good idea when the comparison is done in the table.

And i may be wrong, but the above specifications that you quoted are being seen by me for the first time, as i have not seen such specifications for WS-10A on a lot of Chinese defence forums. But they may be for the WS-10 variant, as WS-10 & WS-10A are different variants with different specifications. Source link would be preferred.

Read the article, will give you a good idea.

This is the real face of Taihang (WS-10) Turbofan Engine!|China Military Power Mashup

 

[Tomahawk]

WS-10A is comparable to AL-31F.

Read the article pasted in below link, will give you a good idea when the comparison is done in the table.

And i may be wrong, but the above specifications that you quoted are being seen by me for the first time, as i have not seen such specifications for WS-10A on a lot of Chinese defence forums. But they may be for the WS-10 variant, as WS-10 & WS-10A are different variants with different specifications. Source link would be preferred.

Read the article, will give you a good idea.

This is the real face of Taihang (WS-10) Turbofan Engine!|China Military Power Mashup

The specifications that I quoted were from sinodefence, link is given below.

Jian-10 (J-10, F-10) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

You are right that WS-10A is comparable to only AL-31F model and not the FN model.
But in J-10, engine model is AL-31FN, a modified variant specially tailored for the J-10. Details are given in the "Powerplant" section of the link mentioned above.

On the other hand if we look at wikipedia it says:
"WS-10 - original design producing a thrust of 126 kN
WS-10A - uprated variant producing a thrust of 132 kN".

Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, if we go by this info then we can say that WS-10A is equivalent to AL-31FN M1 (with TVC).

 

[TaimiKhan]

The specifications that I quoted were from sinodefence, link is given below.

Jian-10 (J-10, F-10) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

You are right that WS-10A is comparable to only AL-31F model and not the FN model.
But in J-10, engine model is AL-31FN, a modified variant specially tailored for the J-10. Details are given in the "Powerplant" section of the link mentioned above.

On the other hand if we look at wikipedia it says:
"WS-10 - original design producing a thrust of 126 kN
WS-10A - uprated variant producing a thrust of 132 kN".

Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, if we go by this info then we can say that WS-10A is equivalent to AL-31FN M1 (with TVC).

Yups, you are right, basically AL-31FN is just like the RD-93 story, RD-93 got some changes specially for us, like the positioning of the gear box downwards, so is the story with AL-31FN, its same as AL-31F, but the gearbox is positioned on the downward side.

 

[Quwa]

May be Flight Global, Janes, DefenseNews, etc, are considered far more reliable than Jang/Nation on defence news but that doesn't give it automatic immunity from scruitinitization. Furthermore, those journals have track records for printing fabricated, imaginative and halucinative news; so before GOP's promulgation, no one should jump around with joys when sorrows are stucking ezch and every Patriotic Pakistani's heart every now and thn. And observing delay on ERYIE's delivery, non-paranoic attitude in acquiring J-10 from off the shelf as stop gap while enemies are frequently crossing your air area; I get a feeling that PAK is getting quezzed like Iraq before unleasing the storm, thanks.

From a PAF official - Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan - himself:

He confirmed reports that Pakistan will procure the Chinese-built Chengdu FC-20 fighter, an export version of the J-10 fighter. However, PAC will not participate in the co-production of the FC-20 program, Farhat Hussain said.

Despite media reports the JF-17 has suffered setbacks trying to resolve the acquisition of an engine for the aircraft the Russian-built RD-93 engines have been outfitted on the aircraft without problems, Farhat Hussain said. “The media created the issue, it was not true.”

Dubai Air Show 2009 Pakistan Shows Off K-8 Trainer for Export

 

[Super Falcon]

i think manufaturing probleum will be finish soon and i still believe that J 10 is superior than F 16 slightly with its canards and etc

 

[mean_bird]

Airframe-wise, it should be quite maneuverable--probably more than the F-16 with its canards, but the real question is in terms of avionics--the sensors, electronics, radar, weapons, ECM, software, etc.

It remains to be seen how advanced are chinese avionics. From what we have read so far about the JF-17, it seems China is making tremendous progress in this department.

 

[lmjiao]

Russia has developed an improved engine for J-10 capable of TVC.
If any of our Chinese member could confirm the type of engine that will be used in J-10s for Pakistan.
Will it be AL-31FN (without TVC) or AL-31FN M1 (with TVC)?

From Sinodefence:
"Salyut has also introduced an improved version of the AL-31FN, featuring a fully variable, all-aspect thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle and an increased afterburning thrust of 124.54kN (12,700kg, 27,998lb). Currently Salyut is actively marketing the engine to China, but it is not known whether this engine will be fitted on future production J-10 fighters."

From another source:
"The more highly powered and advanced variant of the J-10, the Super-10, first reported in 2006, is fitted with the AL-31FN M1 supplied by Salyut. The AL-31FN M1 provides 132.5kN and is equipped with full authority digital engine control and a four-way swivelling exhaust nozzle for vectored thrust."

Now Taihang(ws-10) is getting ready, and AL-31FN will get no chance.

The airforce of PLA prefer fighters with homemade engines,
since during a war, we can made thousands or tens of thousands of them.

Ws-10 was developed for J-10 and J-11, so no forign engines will be used any more when Ws-10 has been mature.

In resent years, China is working on almost all kinds of engines,
some of them are list below, and some are still remain top serect.

WS-10 for J-10/J-11
WS-13 for JF-17
WS-18(a copy of the engine used in IL-76) for H-6K(Chinese Bomber)
WS-15 for J-XX (5-gereneration Fighter)

Deffrent from other countries, PLAAF will never be satisfied with any engines that China cannot product herself, that's why J-8F is still under production while J-10 and J-11 are all perfect now.

So russian engines will get no chance, no matter how good they are.

But when reffering to the fighters for Pakistan, their engine could only be desided by PAF's choice.