Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[araz]

Pakistan got 200 russian engines via china on the condition of no sale to third country.Each machine requires 2 engines, this gives Pakistan 100 machines.50 have been delivered/inducted, the remaining 50 will be completed by the middle of 2016.By that time WS-13/17 Engine will be ready for JF-17 block 3 with aesa radar.Since Chinese do not allow Pakistan sell the aeroplane with any other engine ,Export and remaining PAF requirements will then begin.This is my cumulative assessment based upon continous following of JF-17 wprogram since 1992.Only AERONAUT can provide you with authoritative info.

However, contrary to the assumption of RD93 not being for sale to a third country PAF is actively marketing and is not shy from selling it. So the two do not add up. Although I personally agree we will not have much success unless we have a chinese engine. Iam merely trying to make sense at the disprity of the two thoughts to try and make sense of this conundrum.

These were already upgraded in 1996-97, before being delivered to Jordan, out of AMARAC junk, now i'm not sure, how many times an airframe can be upgraded! May be a general overhaul and that's all.



It does not tell me any thing wrong with JF-17, in 2006 it started its manufacturing of first batch, and later the program faced engineered setbacks, but it kept crawling upwards.
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IMO, they are located at best possible place, and there are bright chances that a naval squadron may be next in line.

Hi
You have querried two points where I was not clear. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not. My response was designed keeping both scenarios in mind. Even if you believe the official story that they have 3000hrs life left then they need capability upgrade with APG68V9 and new avionics. At 200 hrs a yr they are still good for 15yrs. This is not a bad buy at all.
Regarding JFT, one of the reason for not establishing the 3rd squadron is lack of infrastructure due to lack of resources. The other may have been lack of trained manpower. This is why you only have 2 squadron at Peshawar and Kamra inspite of having at least 42 planes in service. I think normal squadron strength is 14_16 planes with PAF. When you establish the infrastructure this is when you will have the third squadron .
Regards
Araz

 

[Donatello]

Probably, this is 2/3 of a squadorn

but along with the previous 63 units, now 76 f-16s allow for 4 full squadrons of 19 a/c each. No 5, 9, 11 and now 19 squadron. No 5 sqd has the new 18 blk52+ so that leaves 1 for spare or attrition in other squadrons. But yes, PAF effectively doubled its f-16 strength from 32 old ones in 2005 to 76 now.

 

[nana41]

[quAZERBAIJANaraz, post: 5608479, member: 1124"]However, contrary to the assumption of RD93 not being for sale to a third country PAF is actively marketing and is not shy from selling it. So the two do not add up. Although I personally agree we will not have much success unless we have a chinese engine. Iam merely trying to make sense at the disprity of the two thoughts to try and make sense of this conundrum.

I
Hi
You have querried two points where I was not clear. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not. My response was designed keeping both scenarios in mind. Even if you believe the official story that they have 3000hrs life left then they need capability upgrade with APG68V9 and new avionics. At 200 hrs a yr they are still good for 15yrs. This is not a bad buy at all.
Regarding JFT, one of the reason for not establishing the 3rd squadron is lack of infrastructure due to lack of resources. The other may have been lack of trained manpower. This is why you only have 2 squadron at Peshawar and Kamra inspite of having at least 42 planes in service. I think normal squadron strength is 14_16 planes with PAF. When you establish the infrastructure this is when you will have the third squadron .
Regards
Araz[/quote]
ARAZ, if Azerbaijan wanted 24, Zimbabwe 12 and Sri Lanka 6, why didnt Pakistan accept the orders.?.....you can place order but delivery only after 2016.

 

[BATMAN]

There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not.

Jordan wanted to have all their F-16 at common MLU standard, hence they expired intial 13, which according to them can't be upgraded to MLU standard.

Even if you believe the official story that they have 3000hrs life left

I don't believe in this story, simply because after 4000 hrs. is the total life of an airframe, and at those times there was no concept of re-sale of used a/c hence i assume US may have flew those a/c till the last hour, before scraping them.
now since, before delivery from AMARAC scrap, these were upgraded, let's assume that upgrade may have lifted its operational life to another 4000 hrs.
Jordan, have flew these extensively, hence i see no logic in believing that there are 3000 hrs. left. we know Jordan has been very active in exercises with these F-16 and there is more to believe that those were flown beyond there service life.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi,

The F16 carries almost twice or three times the load of a JF 17---mirage 3/4---F7PG---and has many an hours longer loiter time than either of these aircraft wihtout air refuelling.

may be not twice / thrice

 

[araz]

Jordan wanted to have all their F-16 at common MLU standard, hence they expired intial 13, which according to them can't be upgraded to MLU standard.



I don't believe in this story, simply because after 4000 hrs. is the total life of an airframe, and at those times there was no concept of re-sale of used a/c hence i assume US may have flew those a/c till the last hour, before scraping them.
now since, before delivery from AMARAC scrap, these were upgraded, let's assume that upgrade may have lifted its operational life to another 4000 hrs.
Jordan, have flew these extensively, hence i see no logic in believing that there are 3000 hrs. left. we know Jordan has been very active in exercises with these F-16 and there is more to believe that those were flown beyond there service life.

What you are saying is that your ACM is lying as the 3000hrs life story comes from him. If this is true then he should be court martialled. There are other sources from pakdef info basically corroborating what the ACM has said . I myself dont have any way of confirming/ denying what you are suggesting to this board that this is an elaborate fraud.
As far as I know not all Planes stored at AMARC have flown their full quota of 4000 hrs..these planes were inducted in the 80s and in early 90s were stored . At an average of 250hrs. At 10 yrs they should have had 1500 hrs left. After MLU this life would have extended by another 4000hrs. I AM ASSUMING a range of 220 hrs per yrs for 12 yrs (2001_2013) 2600 hrs of flying. It still leaves 2900 hrs life in the airframe by my calculations which is very close to what the ACM is saying. You will see that I have been fairly generous in calculating the flying hours. I can be fairly sure the jordanians have not done anywhere close to the number of hours that I have attributed to them. So on pure numbers your logic does not make sense to me. I am not arguing with you for the sake of having an argument. I really want to make sence out of what you are saying. At the end of the day we are both not Aeronautical engineers with insite into PAF s working patterns and even from past experience with the mirages it does not make Sense to me. So this is the reason I am disputing your post.
Regards
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

What you are saying is that your ACM is lying as the 3000hrs life story comes from him. If this is true then he should be court martialled. There are other sources from pakdef info basically corroborating what the ACM has said . I myself dont have any way of confirming/ denying what you are suggesting to this board that this is an elaborate fraud.
As far as I know not all Planes stored at AMARC have flown their full quota of 4000 hrs..these planes were inducted in the 80s and in early 90s were stored . At an average of 250hrs. At 10 yrs they should have had 1500 hrs left. After MLU this life would have extended by another 4000hrs. I AM ASSUMING a range of 220 hrs per yrs for 12 yrs (2001_2013) 2600 hrs of flying. It still leaves 2900 hrs life in the airframe by my calculations which is very close to what the ACM is saying. You will see that I have been fairly generous in calculating the flying hours. I can be fairly sure the jordanians have not done anywhere close to the number of hours that I have attributed to them. So on pure numbers your logic does not make sense to me. I am not arguing with you for the sake of having an argument. I really want to make sence out of what you are saying. At the end of the day we are both not Aeronautical engineers with insite into PAF s working patterns and even from past experience with the mirages it does not make Sense to me. So this is the reason I am disputing your post.
Regards
Araz

What i'm suggesting...... i have mentioned clearly, there is nothing between the lines.

I doubt, that subject F-16 were scraped to AMARAC, while their were any hours left, because at that time their was no concept of refurbishment of an expired a/c. so no logic to junk an airworthy a/c, otherwise US/Jordan may not need to make structural upgrade and engine replacement, before handover/takeover.

second logic is again, calculated from your conservative figures 250 x (1981-94)13 = 3250 hrs. just 750 hrs. short of design life.

In the end, what matters is that how many hours, Jordan flew in 17 years? considering these were the first F-16 in RJAF, and they were used for training and in every exercise! than again going by your calculation 250 x (1997-2014) 17 = 4250 hrs.

I don't see, why subject a/c should be called flight worthy!

Now, i have already stated, why i think Jordan expired them. i.e they are incapable, of any advance upgrade.

If there is more than do tell us, or we can agree on disagreeing.

 

[Viper0011.]

You have querried two points where I was not clear. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether these pĺanes have been MLUed or not.
Araz

These planes did go through MLU. But the MLU program was somewhat different than what it means to the PAF. These were ADF version -16's, meaning they already had certain provisioning in it for the BVR weapons, upgrades, etc. The older MLU was primarily around the structural upgrades and overhauls with basic avionics upgrades, unless like Pakistan, someone specifically required it. These -16's now have little room for further MLU as their space inside is primarily taken and its already saturated. But the idea behind buying these isn't to further MLU them. That would be silly. The ideal is to acquire a potent multi-role capability with focus on interception (ADF version) that doesn't require further money to be spent on these like the rest of the PAF fleet. For that purpose, this is a great buy. For a fraction of the cost, you have interceptors ready to use AMRAAMS without a day worth of gap since they landed. In Pakistan's scenario, the BVR capability is more than sufficient as is. Even if the next Gen AMRAAM's added 100 extra miles worth of range with next Gen radars......majority of the threat center is around India for the PAF. The FOB's are within a couple of hundred KM's so technically you could lock onto an incoming bogie while it's well within 50 miles of the border....... That pretty much takes care of the threat sector for the PAF

 

[MastanKhan]

Jordanian airforce don't fly 250 hrs a year----maybe 150 to 175 hrs a year. 250 hrs is for an extremely high combat ready force----.

Jordanians don't face that kind of threat to fly that many hrs a year.

 

[Munir]

So you guys think that one plane is assigned to one pilot? I do not think so. You can fly one mission without refueling 5 hours. Maybe two or three times a day with a plane... During wartime scenario which we often have they planes fly double hours...

 

[Manticore]

11 Royal Jordanian Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far.
F-16 News

 

[khanasifm]

14 sqn is next Jf-17 sqn, 18, CCS and 2 sqn will be replaced by jf 17in the next batch and that the end of F7p, total life of F7p is 800 X 3 (overhaul intervals, ~2400 hours) hours for comparison to F16.

 

[Najam Khan]

What i'm suggesting...... i have mentioned clearly, there is nothing between the lines.

In the end, what matters is that how many hours, Jordan flew in 17 years? considering these were the first F-16 in RJAF, and they were used for training and in every exercise! than again going by your calculation 250 x (1997-2014) 17 = 4250 hrs.

I don't see, why subject a/c should be called flight worthy!

Now, i have already stated, why i think Jordan expired them. i.e they are incapable, of any advance upgrade.

If there is more than do tell us, or we can agree on disagreeing.

Well it was the first time when PAF CAS shared details of any procurement so openly with media i.e Flying hours left on an airframe. This was not meant for thinkers like you on internet to pick a calculator and start falsifying his 'official word' on 'air-worthiness / flight safety status' of these aircraft.

Flight worthiness is is not just about achieving flying hours, its how that aircraft's team manages its repair and maintenance. Do they replace all faulty parts on time? / install and replace new LRUs (BTW F16 has 140+ LRUs which make it very maintenance friendly) ? Are all sqn aircraft undergone depot level maintenance (post-sqn-level-maintenance) as per set timeline?

I disagree with your hypothesis on air worthiness of these aircraft, based on these calculations on air worthiness PAF original F-16s (Peacegate-I/II) would never be regarded as 'air-worthy' before achieving MLU. Still PAF managed to use these machines (without any MLU) in war-on-terror for good 4+ years.

Here are some facts shared with media on PAF F-16s usage, which would help you reconsider your hypothesis.

1- 40 aircraft procured till late 80s, extensive use in Soviet/Afghan war (13,275 hours flight in war use 1986-1989)
2- 100,000 accident free hours achieved from 1995-2005 (with 32 aircraft in use)
3- 5500 combat sorties in war on terror August'2008-Aug'2011.

 

[My-Analogous]

Block 40 requires for C and D variants of Viper

Not really

 

[BATMAN]

Well it was the first time when PAF CAS shared details of any procurement so openly with media i.e Flying hours left on an airframe. This was not meant for thinkers like you on internet to pick a calculator and start falsifying his 'official word' on 'air-worthiness / flight safety status' of these aircraft.

Flight worthiness is is not just about achieving flying hours, its how that aircraft's team manages its repair and maintenance. Do they replace all faulty parts on time? / install and replace new LRUs (BTW F16 has 140+ LRUs which make it very maintenance friendly) ? Are all sqn aircraft undergone depot level maintenance (post-sqn-level-maintenance) as per set timeline?

I disagree with your hypothesis on air worthiness of these aircraft, based on these calculations on air worthiness PAF original F-16s (Peacegate-I/II) would never be regarded as 'air-worthy' before achieving MLU. Still PAF managed to use these machines (without any MLU) in war-on-terror for good 4+ years.

Here are some facts shared with media on PAF F-16s usage, which would help you reconsider your hypothesis.

1- 40 aircraft procured till late 80s, extensive use in Soviet/Afghan war (13,275 hours flight in war use 1986-1989)
2- 100,000 accident free hours achieved from 1995-2005 (with 32 aircraft in use)
3- 5500 combat sorties in war on terror August'2008-Aug'2011.

i was not discussing with ACM, so no reason to believe.... i was falsifying him, neither i was falsifying any one else. which, I have made very clear in my reply to araz, same post you have quoted.

This is my way, i always think logically, to any claim or statement from any one, hence my calculation and nor did i find your (above) reply very convincing.

However, If you think, it was not my right, delete my calculation or mark it negative.... or you can have some indian, do your laundry.

You are not discussing here, hence there is nothing more to discuss, from my side either.