Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[Windjammer]

In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.

Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.

While this is an exaggerated assumption that doesn't apply to all cases of arms transactions, it highlights the very problem with the jf-17 sales push: the type of nations looking to buy such an aircraft seldom do so based on merit alone. It is a balancing act consisting of which nation a buyer chooses to ally with, the benefits received from the seller's government (financial, economic, diplomatic), the advantages to local industry and, possibly last,how effective the aircraft is in filling it's intended role. The jf-17 may be very cost effective, but Pakistan does not offer a fellow third world nation any overarching protection against potential adversaries, nor does it have funds to invest in local economic projects; as such siding with Pakistan on a geopolitical level brings no advantages of any kind.

The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.

A comprehensive insight sir, but then i ask myself, if the Chinese did well with their F-7s without being active in global politics and the likes of K-8 didn't fail while Pakistan is attached to it. Could it be that the issue may be related to JF-17 not being whole lot Chinese/Pakistani....after all many newmarket countries switched from Soviet hardware to Western technology. Having a Russian engine is like going back in time for them....just my two cents.

 

[ziaulislam]

A comprehensive insight sir, but then i ask myself, if the Chinese did well with their F-7s without being active in global politics and the likes of K-8 didn't fail while Pakistan is attached to it. Could it be that the issue may be related to JF-17 not being whole lot Chinese/Pakistani....after all many newmarket countries switched from Soviet hardware to Western technology. Having a Russian engine is like going back in time for them....just my two cents.

i think k-8s and f-7s were cheap and decent aircrafts. f-7 is still three times cheaper though no longer manufactured i think.
second globally air forces are on reduction. traditionl f-7/mig21 customers are opting not to keep any decent airforce. rather they are going for light aircrfts like K-8s

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Extremely well said. If I may add something, we need to be aware of the fact that Pakistan itself isn't a fully independent country, i.e. a country that values its own vital interests. We are a nation that took US drone strikes lying down and India's IWT violations bending. In fact, Pakistan might have had a much, *much* better shot selling JF-17s (and other arms) while being under US embargo, genuine governments abroad (e.g. Brazil) could at least be assured of Pakistan's seriousness in trying to build its own bridges (without piggybacking on the 'legitimacy' standards set by the US).

Pakistan would do exponentially better off being independent and considerate of its own vital interests. Will it upset the US and those like them, e.g. Britain, France, KSA, etc? Certainly. Will it earn Pakistan the genuine respect of the likes of China, Brazil, Sweden, Germany, South Africa, and many others? Definitely.

for that to happen they need to give up on america and american weapons.

 

[Nishan-101]

My Question is that why not 16 F-16s from Jordan? Why 13 of them??? Also any possibility of Jordan gaining license production or joining in JF-17s and K-8 program for local production along with KSA, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.

 

[surya kiran]

My Question is that why not 16 F-16s from Jordan? Why 13 of them??? Also any possibility of Jordan gaining license production or joining in JF-17s and K-8 program for local production along with KSA, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.

And NISHAN is back! everybody calculators with khayali pulao out of your pockets.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

My Question is that why not 16 F-16s from Jordan? Why 13 of them??? Also any possibility of Jordan gaining license production or joining in JF-17s and K-8 program for local production along with KSA, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.

tum phir a gya........

 

[SBD-3]

Pakistan needs to buy air superiority fighter not to buy old F-16

Something which can carry upto 6 AIMRAAMs,if required,is pretty much an air-superiority fighter........

 

[MastanKhan]

In my opinion, a great portion of the blame also lies in our expectations. Arms deals to the third world aren't like a car sale, unless the Japanese government twists my arm and passively forces me to buy a Honda Civic, as a part of a wider deal in which they rebuild half my house, receive permission to land armed forces in my backyard and gain my support on most political issues and agreement to buy almost exclusively Japanese cars as a means to prop up their automotive industry. As a car buyer, I am not a slave to Japanese policies against other nations and am free to flip flop on which brand to give my business, without having to worry about loosing access to Civic parts and electricity to my house.

Money speaks above all else in arms purchases, but it does not do so at the expense of what a purchase entails for the buying nation. This is magnified in the case of third world nations, because many of these sales are sweeteners to higher level diplomatic and economic dealings and come with favorable financing terms, which are the price for the strings attached. The f-16 was such a success, not simply because it is a great fighter, but because, in the same mold as the mig-21 for the Soviets, it forms a significant part of the American global diplomacy. F-16s and the like are a gift for: surrendering an authentic foreign policy to the American cause, a free pass to use sovereign territory for US power projection, and as a means to support American arms industry.

The jf-17 sales pitch failed the day Pakistan was attached to the project. It may garner sales at some point, but to expect it to become a volume seller, it will require the Chinese to become active in global politics in the same mold as the Americans are today; at which point the Chinese and all the perks that come with doing business with them, will sell the aircraft. We should be satisfied with what the jf-17 is doing for the PAF, it is unfair to expect anymore.

Hi,

I would say that the attachment of pakistan is an asset---an endorsment from PAF speaks a lot to all the countries that maybe a candidate for this aircraft. The JF17 is still in its development stage---most candidate nations would be looking for a capable aircraft with a dedicated BVR.

My thinking is that this aircraft was marketed too soon and the tactics used in presenting this aircraft were extremely cheap and un-professional.

This aircraft did not have a complete package to display---and fighter aircraft take a long time to sell. There are many a nation the size of pakistan, some smaller, some larger----and most of these nations would be considering this aircraft seriously in the next 2 to 3 years---because a complete picture of what is coming out would be available.

Weapons buying are not totally political decisions---there still has to be sales displays, sales brochures, still there would be sales associate making their pitch---you need them to display the wares and talk about the strenghts and what it can do for the end user---after sales service---availability of parts and training and upgrades----this is all a part of the sales and supply department.

Technicians would be made available, trainers would be made available, prior to delivery setup would be made available---it is all a matter of time---.

A lot of countries in africa don't want to deal with the u s of a----they don't see russia offering much ( too expensive to operate )---. Their only hope lies with china and pakistan---and all these countries that have shown a serious interest in the aircraft are eagerly waiting for the second batch.

Bottomline is that these countries don't have anywhere else to go---u s won't sell them---europe won't sell them---and when it falls between russia and china---china would come out a winner.

As for china----its geography does not need a JF17---but many a countries in africa and so america will be prime candidates.

Last but not the least----this aircraft was TOO EAGERLY offered as a TWO FOR ONE---. Regardless it being car sales, home sales, tank sales, fighter aircraft sales and gun sales political or non political---an excitement needs to be created amongst the perspective buyers----the art of selling has not changed---it takes two people----one who is a seller---one who is a buyer---.

You need to create the desire---you need to create the excitement---you need to demonstrate what the aircraft can do for you----you need to show what changes it is going to bring in your image---you also need to sell the cost factor---you also need to sell upon the changes that it will bring to their image----you also need to sell on the cost of ownership---strike capabilities---air superiority---reliability---short turn around time---easy learning curve---training and all the support that is available.

First sell them on what it can do---and then take it away from them---make them eager---make them desire your aircraft---make them salivate----let them know that you know that they cannot get anything close to it from anyone else----but don't insult them---they will come to you when the time is right.

 

[Oldman1]

F16 taking on an Eurofighter.

 

[araz]

Araz saheb, block 2 jf17 is pretty much dominating f16 adf in every field. While block 52 or latest mlu do well in high these adf are not even low at the moment. I consider block 2 as medium and a workhorse.

The idea of buying crap and selling jf17 is not only unwise in terms of marketing but it sounds stupid idea to me. There are limitations in terms of usage. I doubt that if next time not obl but someone else is targeted we could use these cheap more then three decades old planes. And who wants to wait till india gets all the data it needs to counter?

So Why in your view has PAF bought these planes? Following you fairly closely i have noticed that you have gone 180degrees on your earlier arguments. What do you know that we dont know and would you be able to share it with us?
Regards
Araz

 

[nomi007]

in my opinion paf policy is realist to purchase 2nd hand stuff from west
due to poor economic conditions and maintaining new stuff is also very costly

 

[Indus Falcon]

So Why in your view has PAF bought these planes? Following you fairly closely i have noticed that you have gone 360degrees on your earlier arguments. What do you know that we dont know and would you be able to share it with us?
Regards
Araz

I think you meant 180?

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Munir]

So Why in your view has PAF bought these planes? Following you fairly closely i have noticed that you have gone 180degrees on your earlier arguments. What do you know that we dont know and would you be able to share it with us?
Regards
Araz

If you are so sure of your position then please explain what the added value is to marketing of jf17...
And do explain where you see a 180 degree turn...

 

[araz]

araz

If you are so sure of your position then please explain what the added value is to marketing of jf17...
And do explain where you see a 180 degree turn...

Munir.
In my view marketing of JFT is an entirely different issue to buying the 16s because of the different function of the planes ie hi vs lo. They are still two different platforms of different size and therefore use in PAF is different.
As to the 180 thing, in the beginning you were all for the F16s bought from Jordan, and now you seem to have changed your opinion. I am just inquisitive as to whether this change of heart was brought along by information that you might have or what else has changed your mind.
If it is any consolation I also agree that the marketing of JFT should be dealt with by experts rather than PAF Pilots/engineers. I also think we wont get much sales without the JFT having WS13.It is an absolute must.
araz