'Pakistan at disadvantage to maintain military balance'

[Keysersoze]

Hmm,

I can see you are in one man quest to annihalte all those trigger happy indians, which might include myself at times.......lol
Replaced by far superior systems, which is not what is happening in the otherside of the border.
Indian defence expenditure is increasing by 22% very year, plus the indian GDP increases every year also. That is a phenomenal amount of money,

Not at all
Please note I also will take to task people from pak of the type who proclaim that the "Al-khalid is the best tank ever" etc etc.

I am now off to help my best friend of 22 years who also happens to be Indian........

 

[niaz]

:army: dear sir....i am of pakistan origion born in london...and i am A VERY PROUD ****..i believe what i said was rational....and i beliebve now you are talking fiction like joseph heller.....i wount go far ARAB HISTORY & SALAHUDDIN AYUBI (BATTLE OF BADR) which the indians copied in one of their war movies proves how people with less resources won against the ones with HUGE stocks of amunation and manpower..what else do you need to accept it..i will never go to iraq...iraq lost the war because they were not one against their enemy...but challenge NORTH KOREA if you really want to prove what you said..England is not even 1/20 the size of america but they have an economy just third largest..japan is the second largest trader of the world...JUST LIKE RUSSIA YOU CAN LOOK GOOD WITH WEARING CLOTHES FROM HARRODS BUT YOU CANNOT HEAL YOUR DISEASE WITHIN WITH THAT

I dont like to enter into pointless hypothetical debates, let us agree to disagree. I too have a Uk passport but I always consider my self as a Pakistani thru and thru.

By the way you are incorrect about England being the third largest economy.
According to CIA fact book both Germany ($ 2.85 trillion) and China ( $2.520-trillion) are larger than UK ($2.34 trillion). This at official exchange rate. At Purchase power parity even Indian econmy is huge ( $4.04 trillion) vs UK ( $1.93 trillion) Japan GDP at offical exchange rate is $4.91-trillion and $13-trillion for the US.

FYI Pakisatn GDP at official exchange rate is $124 -billion (1/6.5 of Indian GDP) and $ 427 -billion at PPP.

All figure are 2006 estimates.

 

[Bull]

This is not a pissing contest Adux it is a matter of record the internal problems of Pakistan.

The maintenance of systems such as the tanks and aircraft are what I am refering to. Does India have to replace Mig21's and Vijayanta tanks or not?

The Pak navy is a coastal defence force not a blue water navy. All it has to do is defend it's territory not go around whupping some ***.

Well tyou speak about Mig 21s and Vijayanta tanks in the Indian armour and conveniantly forgets about the counterparty here. Pakistanis have the same planes as old as ours and i guess not upgraded to the IAFs bison standards.

Pak Navy is rotten other than the Agosta beasts they dont have anything else. And how is that you agree with the author that indian navy is old. I think its modern except for the Submarines.

 

[Bull]

I forgot the link to these articles....

Boss, you get these articles can you tell us and the other members what the PA armoury consists off.

And i do agree with you we have aging fleet in our armoury, now we need have abrams or leapords as we see no tech masterpiece across the borders.

 

[Keysersoze]

Well tyou speak about Mig 21s and Vijayanta tanks in the Indian armour and conveniantly forgets about the counterparty here. Pakistanis have the same planes as old as ours and i guess not upgraded to the IAFs bison standards.

Pak Navy is rotten other than the Agosta beasts they dont have anything else. And how is that you agree with the author that indian navy is old. I think its modern except for the Submarines.

I have not forgotten.........I will happily provide information on the above....the attrition rate is higher for the IAF.

Also Re the navy I never commented upon the navy but since we are there......go get a map and take a look at the respective coast lines.........

 

[Bull]

I have not forgotten.........I will happily provide information on the above....the attrition rate is higher for the IAF.

Attrition rate is high, ok i give it to you. But how do you calculate it? By comparing the no of planes that have crashed in a year or by calculating the no of crashes per flying hours.

Crashes wont happen unless you have somthing flying. Get me a figure which shows IAF has more crashes per flying hours.

Also Re the navy I never commented upon the navy but since we are there......go get a map and take a look at the respective coast lines.........

I have no doubt about the coast lines.

The logic of PN being defensive and can afford to be small and then applying the same logic to India and saying India has to defend the entire coastline using IN is baseless.

IN just can sail in and envelope the entire PN.

Incase of a altercation between India and Pakistan, you can expect most of the IN flotilla attacking the narrow Pakistani coastline and the PN is in no way going to stop it.

Earlier wars have seen India diverting ships into the eastern sector mainly because we were worried about PLAN and USN. USN wont do anything, PLAN wont dare as long as USN and Rukies are not daring to.

 

[Neo]

Dumbo author firstly thinks F-16 is third generation and Pakistan cannot find suppliers or equipment. Did he look at the stories linking us to the EF 2000. The guy also thinks the J-10 well basically sucks compared to F-18. Does he have to be reminded that it is highly maneuvrable and can carry huge loads over massive distances. By the way, its radar is also satisfactory only to be improved by Sino Pak AWACS.:flag: :ChinaFlag:

Donno what happened to my first reply in this thread, it seem to have disappreard but I posted soemthing similar. :thumbsup:
Btw, any 'wanna be defence journalist' stating F-16 to be a third generation jet should be banned from reporting. :wall:

Indeed, he's a dumba$$!

 

[HASEEB66]

I dont like to enter into pointless hypothetical debates, let us agree to disagree. I too have a Uk passport but I always consider my self as a Pakistani thru and thru.

By the way you are incorrect about England being the third largest economy.
According to CIA fact book both Germany ($ 2.85 trillion) and China ( $2.520-trillion) are larger than UK ($2.34 trillion). This at official exchange rate. At Purchase power parity even Indian econmy is huge ( $4.04 trillion) vs UK ( $1.93 trillion) Japan GDP at offical exchange rate is $4.91-trillion and $13-trillion for the US.

FYI Pakisatn GDP at official exchange rate is $124 -billion (1/6.5 of Indian GDP) and $ 427 -billion at PPP.

All figure are 2006 estimates.

kindly explain the FYI??? is FYI FDI YOU ARE TYALKING ABOUT...kindly explain figures you gave me...i will post you some real substance and show you as the clothes look outside trendy the disease inside is deadly...the economic progress thransfers to the masses??when that happens in india just tell me than our brothers on the other side of the border have something really to be impressed about..one more thing i know purchasing power parity..it does not mean anything..it is like 100 people having 1 rupees each..in UK 6 people having 10 rs each..as far as you said economy...a country is for the people not for statistics...again you fail to realise "BIG IS NOT BETTER" ..if you want the proof check which economies are the most effecient economies of the world..which people have highest living standards..and who is called the first world? not your america..not your china...will INDIA in the next 30 years actually become anything even like china or thailand??? VERY DIFFICULT...as tyou said we cannot win a conventional war so let me remind you the next war if God forbid's happens will be dominated by missile warfare and that Pakistan has more advanced missile system than india..whatever you are saying is that if it were so the smaller will always be considered weak and if people like you took every powerful thing as God as some people did that the truth and small will never survive..and even if uk is 4th or 5th check their size and size of your india america japan china..see the small countries like finland...sweden..belgium..italy.denmark..how they are living and how well they have done..did they got scared of germany and france and gave up..what about japan despite an atom bomb thrown today america is struggling to survive against it..and japan is very poor in natural resources..GENERAL MOTORS IS MORE AND MORE IN LOSS AND TOYOTA IS MORE AND MORE SUCCESFUL THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE.. READ MORE SUBSTANCE AND DRINK COFFE. :army:

 

[Neo]

Well the title of the article itself is misleading...there has never been a balance of military power between Pakistan and India, rather degrees of imbalance....For Pakistan when the imbalance gets too great then it becomes worrisome...other than that Pakistan is destined to be outnumbered by India any which way you look at it.

Excellent post Sir! :army:
India is three times bigger in size, six times bigger in population and has an economy seven times bugger than ours.
Yet we've managed to maintain a status quo 3:1 when it comes to military power.
Does it make us weaker?
No!
Indian (military) doctrine is built around fronts, China and Pakistan. The former being three times bigger and more powerful as a thrue economic powerhouse. She can drain India in a long term conflict.
India can buy whatever she wants, she'll always outnumber us but we're determined to maintain current status quo.
There was imbalance when we were severly hit by santions and weapon embargo but we managed to close gap.

Now in terms of western suppliers not meeting Pakistan's need, that is incorrect. Pakistan has many a deals that are in the works which on the request of GoP are not publicized where as any or every deal that India gets into gets sufficient lime light.

Indeed!
Just to prove you right I refer to Sir Murads claim that a batch of Cobra's was never publicized.
Agosta deal was kept in secret for long time and negotiations regarding the purchase of Marlin and U-214 just came to light.
No one can tell whats cooking.

Overall I would not pay too much attention to this report. Companies flocking to sell and then the complications that arise due to politics (esp. from western suppliers) are two different things...while India maybe the cash cow right now, even then there are no guarantees that support. logistics and spares will be provided in case of hostilities....the anti-war lobbies in Europe at least are fairly even-handed when it comes to South Asia (Re: Bofors, Sagem etc.).

Both the report and the reporter are bias, poorly informed indeed!

 

[Neo]

He says Indians outlay of 35bn as defence expenses for 11 plan period is half of Pakistan's GDP. That's weird. $35 Bn is for 5 years, and he is comparing that to Pakistan's GDP for 1 year.

Glad you mentioned it Bull.
Imho the author is stuck in time, probably '99/00 when our GDP had declined to merely $70 billion.
GDP last year was est. to be aroud $124-130 billion, it's been growing for over 7% for five consequtive years now and even higher growth is expected.
How is $35 billion make half the GDP?

 

[Neo]

Look even if we ignore the whole self love article posted, there are points to be made re this in-balance......

1)Look at the size of India. The forces described will have to cover the whole of that country. There are internal as well as external problems for that force to meet. Now look at the size of Pak....The size of the army/airforce/navy is commensurate with its size. Pak punches above it's weight.

2)If you look at India's current inventory, most of it is nearing the end of it's lifespan. They are spending vast sums to replace/maintain their current fleets.

3)As Blain said, all Pak has to do is make it very costly for India to attack. A defensive force will always have an advantage. It only takes a cheap explosive charge to take out a $4 million tank.

Excellent points Keyser!

4)And on a personal note. I would advise all people who lose their temper to remember one thing. In conflict the coolest head always wins. Remember the example of Salhuddin. He was courteous to his enemies, yet fought well and hard against them.

Words of wisdom! :thumbsup:

 

[Neo]

kindly explain the FYI??? is FYI FDI YOU ARE TYALKING ABOUT...kindly explain figures you gave me...

Let me interfere here Haseeb, FYI (For Your Information ) the figuers provided by Sir Niaz are pretty accurate, Great Britain in real terms GDP comes fourth after USA, Japan and China in this very particular order.
China by the end of this decade could very well replace Japan from the second place as economy is still growing in double digits, i.e. $250-300 billions per year!!

i will post you some real substance and show you as the clothes look outside trendy the disease inside is deadly...the economic progress thransfers to the masses??when that happens in india just tell me than our brothers on the other side of the border have something really to be impressed about..

Valid but irrelevant to the topic!
We're not talking about the Human Development Indicator but the absolute size of the economy.
Defence expenditure is budgeted as a percentage of the GDP, higher GDP will only result in higher budget.

one more thing i know purchasing power parity..it does not mean anything..it is like 100 people having 1 rupees each..in UK 6 people having 10 rs each..as far as you said economy...a country is for the people not for statistics...again you fail to realise "BIG IS NOT BETTER" ..if you want the proof check which economies are the most effecient economies of the world..which people have highest living standards..and who is called the first world? not your america..not your china...

Correct, GDP on PPP base is bias if you ask me, just baked air and nothing more!
The much bigger PPP figures are often used to chest thumping by many third world nations but you'll never see any developped country talk about it.

will INDIA in the next 30 years actually become anything even like china or thailand??? VERY DIFFICULT...

Only time will tell but she's well on her track and stable. Imho we should be more worried about Indian economic status as an emerging powerhouse rather than her military might.

as tyou said we cannot win a conventional war so let me remind you the next war if God forbid's happens will be dominated by missile warfare and that Pakistan has more advanced missile system than india..whatever you are saying is that if it were so the smaller will always be considered weak and if people like you took every powerful thing as God as some people did that the truth and small will never survive...

There won't be a winner in a future war between two nuclear rivals, only losers.

 

[Janbaz]

Donno what happened to my first reply in this thread, it seem to have disappreard but I posted soemthing similar. :thumbsup:
Btw, any 'wanna be defence journalist' stating F-16 to be a third generation jet should be banned from reporting. :wall:

Indeed, he's a dumba$$!

You know what makes even funnier: It's a think tank meaning there a bunch of these blasted fools. They definately should be banned from reporting. Reminds me of the some journalists who said the Ghauri could be fired from F-16!

 

[Janbaz]

There won't be a winner in a future war between two nuclear rivals, only losers.

True, like Einstien said (paraphrased): I do not know what the third world war will be fought with but i do know one thing, the fourth is bound to be fought with sticks and stones. Meaning the weapons after World War 2 will be so lethal that when a 3rd World War is fought, it will be the cause of destruction of human civilization and therefore the fourth great war will be fought in a highly primitive manner.

 

[HASEEB66]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS NEO...that was what i was thinking about it is irrelevent to this topic...but let me answer irrelevant but relevant GENERAL SAHAB...all i meant to say is that our indian friends are spending much HUGE amounts than us and it is true anyone will think of them as more powerful but i STRONGLY DISAGREE..the reason india is spending madly on military as i call it are not entirely for pakistan...
1)for some reason the indians want to dominate this region and to some extend the world in the future..
2)india wants to come shoulder to shoulder with CHINA..
3)india wants to bring pakistan to its knees and want to prove pakistan inferior...
4)india thought pakistan would try to match india and herefore bankrupt..

answer..
1)you may look very handsome if you do wear versace but if your disease is preading its better to finance the medicinesthan clothes..
2) india had every potencial to come shoulder to shoulder with china but the approach they have taken will never let that happen..there are somne very basic differences between china and india...and the difference are in the people..it will either take 30 years or will never happen..and in that time china will be 30 years ahead..china is a country they are people india is only a copycat and mixture..
3)one thing my friend did'nt realise that despite the facts india has much larger inventory of conventional weapons..joint combat system..blue navy..double man power..and so much more super sonic cruise missiles and supersonic aircraft..larger forex reserves more support internationally..
THANKS TO INDIA FOR GOING MISSILE & NUCLEAR THAT HAS HELPED PAKISTAN BALANCE THE EQUATION IF NOT SURPASS IT..ONE MORE THING MY FRIEND HAS FAILED TO REALISE THAT INDIA'S ONE AND A HALF MILLION MANPOWER HAS MUCH MUCH LARGER AREA TO DEFEND..IT IS TRUE INDIAN NAVY WILL FORCE PAKISTAN COAST GUARDS TO BE ON THE BACK FOOT...BUT IF I GIVE YOUONE FOOLISH ANSWER BRIAN LARA HAS PLAYED ALL HIS LIFE ON BACKFOOT..EVEN THEIR HERO SACHIN TENDULKAR HAS PLAYED ON THE BACKFOOT..PAKISTAN HAS VERY STRONG MISSILE AND NUCLEAR DELIVERY SYSTEAM OR MEANS..THIS NAVAL THREAT HAS MOTIVATED THE POLICY MAKERS IN ISLAMABAD TO GO FOR GWADAR PORT AND NAVAL BASE WHICH WILL BE OUT OF INDIAS REACH..PAKISTAN HAS A NATURAL DISADVANTAGE OF HAVING A VERY NARROW COATAL LINE..
4)THE GENERALS SITTING IN THE GHQ IN RAWALPINDI ARE NOT THAT STUPID..SOME BODY SAID WHY WOULD THEY KEEP THE DEALS HUSH HUSH ..THE ONLY REASON IS THAT THEY WOULD NOT LIKE TO MAKE INDIA AWARE OF THEIR STRATEGY BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO FINANCE IF INDIA SOMEHOW ATTACKS THEIR DESIGNS..SECOND REASON IS THAT PAKISTAN WILL START FACING DISCRIMINATION TO ABONDON THEIR PLAN'S..
IF WE SEE HOW BRITAIN WAS ALWAYS ON THE VICTORIOUS SITE...THEY WERE SO SMALL BUT THEY KNEW THAT IF ANYBODY CAN REACH THEM WAS BY WATER SO THEY MADE THEIR NAVY THE BEST...IN THE SAME WAY WE HAVE OUR OWN PLANS..
BEING AN EGALITARIAN IT IS HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE THAT OUR ELDER NEIGHBOUR WANTS US TO BE DECLARED A FALIED BANKRUPT AND TERRORIST STATE..IF IN 1857 THE BRITISH WOULD HAVE CALLED OUR FREEDOM FIGHTERS TERRORISTS HOW IT WOULD FEEL LIKE..SCARED TO DEATH MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IN KASHMIR..WANT TO BE A SUPERPOWER AT THE COST OF OTHERS..SPENDING MADLY ON MILITARY AND THE RESULT OF ALL THIS..
A)INDIA HAS THE FASTEST AIDS,DIABETES AND HIV GROWING RATE IN THE WORLD..
B)INDIA HAS THE HIGHEST SUICIDE RATES IN THE WORLD
3)INDIA HAS THE HIGHEST ACCIDENT RATES IN THE WORLD
4)THE ADMINISTRATIVE CORRUPTION RATE IN INDIA IS 93% THE HIGHEST IN THE WORLD..
5)HIGHEST NUMBER OF FOREIGN TOURIST RAPED AND KIDNAPPED IN THE WORLD
6)MOST PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE LIVING WITH ONE OR ALL OF THESE (WITHOUT BASIC MALNUTRITION,RUNNING WATER,SHELTER,CLOTHES,SANITATION,CLEAN DRINKING WATER ,RUNNING WATER,) NOW DO'T TELL ME IT IS BECAUSE INDIA HAS THE HIGHEST POPPULATION EVEN INDIAS PERCENTAGES ARE THE HIGHEST...IS THIS THE WAY COUNTRY DEVELOPS AND THE PEOPLE PROSPERS..INDIA'S ARROGANT AND NON SACRIFICING ATTITUDE HAS MADE LIFE HELL FOR BILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE SUB CONTINENT..FOR GENERATIONS EVEN IF INDIA COMPLETELY DEVELOPS IN 2050 SO MANY GENERATIONS WOULD HAVE PASSED WITHOUT GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVED..
MEDIA HYPE IS SOMETHING DIFFERNET AND REALITY IS SOMETIMES TOTALLY DIFFERENT..IT IS TRUE IN THE MEDIA YOU WILL SEE INDIA A RISING POWER..BUT WHENEVER ANY AMERICAN VISITS INDIA THEY TOTALLY CHANGE THEIR OPINION..
PAKISTAN HAD ALWAYS BEEN RICHER THAN INDIA TILL 97 IT IS ONLY BECAUSE AFTER 91 PAKISTAN ECONOMY GOT STAGNANT AND INDIA KEPT GROWING AT 6%..BUT EVEN TODAY INDIAS SO CALLED MIDDLE CLASS AND LIVING STANDARDS EQUIVALENT TO PAKISTAN'S LOWER CLASS...AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INDIA AND CHINA..THE FACT IS THAT INDIA IS STILL NOT AN ASIAN TIGER...IT IS VERY HEARTY TO LISTEN GOOD THINGS ABOUT YOURSELF BUT IT IS SOMETIMES BETTER TO FACE REALITY AND COMPROMISE...THE INDIAN EX RAW CHIEF SAID INDIA MARRIAGE WITH KASHMIR WILL NOT BE ANNULED.. THE INDIAN MENTALITY ON KASHMIR IS THAT WHEN INDIA WILL BECOME A SUPERPOWER AVERAGE KASHMIRI WILL HAVE A LOYALTY TOWARD INDIA..THIS IS ANOTHER **** PHILOSOPHY...WHEN THE DAUGHTER DOES NOT WANT TO MARRY WITH FATHERS WILL THERE IS NOTHING A FATHER CAN DO...
THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SAVE ONE BILLION HUMAN BEINGS IF THEY CONTINUE WITH THIS PHILOSPHY AND MANY PEOPLE IN INDIA KNOW THIS WELL..THEY KEEP TELLING THEIR PEOPLE STRANGE THINGS AND LIES AGAIN & AGAIN..HOW IS INDIA BETTER THAN PAKISTAN..PAKISTAN STILL HAS MORE MOBILES PER PERSON MMORE CARS PER PERSON MORE MOTOR CYCLES PER PERSON ,,,NOW AS THE DEVELOPMENT AND GROWTH RATE HAS PICKED UP THE DIFFERENCE CREATED IN 4-5 YEARS WILL BE DIFFICULT FOR INDIA TO SUSTAIN FOR THE LONG TIME..THE INDIAN ARE ASSUMED ON STRANGE THINGS SUCH AS ONE MAN IN THE TOP HUNDRED LIST OF THE WORLD AND 200,000 PEOPLE SUICIDING IN SOUTH THAT ALSO TEENAGERS TAHT ALSO AMONGST THE 15-19 AGE GROUP...I MAY BE SOUNDING EMOTIONAL BUT THAT IS AS I SEE IT...SORRY FOR THE CAPS LOCK