'Pakistan at disadvantage to maintain military balance'

[Adux]

Look even if we ignore the whole self love article posted, there are points to be made re this in-balance......

1)Look at the size of India. The forces described will have to cover the whole of that country. There are internal as well as external problems for that force to meet. Now look at the size of Pak....The size of the army/airforce/navy is commensurate with its size. Pak punches above it's weight.

2)If you look at India's current inventory, most of it is nearing the end of it's lifespan. They are spending vast sums to replace/maintain their current fleets.

3)As Blain said, all Pak has to do is make it very costly for India to attack. A defensive force will always have an advantage. It only takes a cheap explosive charge to take out a $4 million tank.

4)And on a personal note. I would advise all people who lose their temper to remember one thing. In conflict the coolest head always wins. Remember the example of Salhuddin. He was courteous to his enemies, yet fought well and hard against them.

Pakistan doesnt have internal problems, NWFP, Waziristan , Baloch etc,
Pakistan doesnt have age-old weapons, Navy Airforce. Do you expect to take on the whole Indian flottilla with 3 agusota's.

There is something in India called Paramilitary Force which is more than capable of handling the very low level Insurgency and J&K is already in Pakistan border, So definitly Army is already there.

An attack from Pakistan will only amalgamate India, refer Kargil, Naxals will be hunted by the villagers if not otherwise.

 

[Adux]

:army: dear sir....i am of pakistan origion born in london...and i am A VERY PROUD ****..i believe what i said was rational....and i beliebve now you are talking fiction like joseph heller.....i wount go far ARAB HISTORY & SALAHUDDIN AYUBI (BATTLE OF BADR) which the indians copied in one of their war movies proves how people with less resources won against the ones with HUGE stocks of amunation and manpower..what else do you need to accept it..i will never go to iraq...iraq lost the war because they were not one against their enemy...but challenge NORTH KOREA if you really want to prove what you said..England is not even 1/20 the size of america but they have an economy just third largest..japan is the second largest trader of the world...JUST LIKE RUSSIA YOU CAN LOOK GOOD WITH WEARING CLOTHES FROM HARRODS BUT YOU CANNOT HEAL YOUR DISEASE WITHIN WITH THAT

huh, Stop watching movies, dont compare apples and oranges

 

[Keysersoze]

This is not a pissing contest Adux it is a matter of record the internal problems of Pakistan.

The maintenance of systems such as the tanks and aircraft are what I am refering to. Does India have to replace Mig21's and Vijayanta tanks or not?

The Pak navy is a coastal defence force not a blue water navy. All it has to do is defend it's territory not go around whupping some ***.

 

[Adux]

Most Mig-21 are bisons, much more capable than the F-16s in Pakistan
T-72 is the backbone and in far more in numbers, Vijayanta are defensive forces.
I hate Pissing contests, and I agree with you on "pakistan punches above its weight, But I dont agree with the reasons you gave, I believe it is more to do with Political Will and willing to take risks,
Navy cant protect its coast, Indian flottila is simply too overpowering, and it seems Airforce is also heading that way.
Pakistan's internal fighters are more armed than the Indian ones, all thanks to the Afgan broder

 

[Keysersoze]

Ok I am gonna post a few articles (from a Indian defence journal) that proves the points I made above.

Again I re-iterate this is not a pissing contest so no patriotism please.....

 

[Keysersoze]

SSN 1416-300X Volume 9, Issue 1, Jan 2007

INDIA TRIGGERS LARGE TANK UPGRADE PROGRAMME
By Bulbul Singh

11 Oct 06. To cope with the acquisition of additional tanks by Pakistan, India has decided to accelerate acquisition of Russian T-90 tanks under license production from Russia, and upgrade all the 1600 existing T–72 tanks. Global tenders for the upgrade of T –72 tanks would begin shortly, while the order for license production of 1000 T-90 tanks has been awarded. By 2020 there would be around 4000 tanks, despite the disposal of 800 Vijayanta tanks and T-55 tanks with the Indian Army.

The Indian Army fast paced the acquisition of additional tanks in line with Pakistan's efforts to induct additional homegrown Al Khalid tanks, and upgrade of the existing T-59 and plans to upgrade T-80 tanks bought from Ukraine. The Indian Army's plans to acquire main battle tanks on time has taken a severe setback following the delay in the homegrown tank Arjun by over a decade and the tank being finally even rejected by the Indian Army for combat worthiness.

Though five Arjun tanks have been produced since its development in 1971, it has not been declared by the Indian Army for combat. The Arjun tank is too bulky at 58.5 tons and is much heavier then the Russian T-90 and has a longer width that gives it a poor operational mobility as the railway wagons available currently cannot accommodate the Arjun. On the other hand Pakistan has inducted its homegrown Al Khalid tank in its army and upgraded its large fleet of t of Chinese T-59 tanks upgraded with the latest 125 mm guns, similar to the new Al-Khalid tanks.

License production of T-90 tanks: The Indian army has already given an order for the license production of T-90 tanks under license from Russia to be produced by the state owned Ordnance Factory Board, at one of its factories at Medak in Andhra Pradesh state. Deliveries would commence from 2008 in various phases and the order for 1000 tanks would be completed by 2011. In the first lot, 300 T-90 tanks would be manufactured, beginning 2008, and the order would be completed by 2011. In the first year 50 tanks, 100 tanks in the second and 150 tanks in the third year would be produced.

No extra facilities would be built for the indigenous production of the Russian T-90 tanks as the existing facilities at Medak and Avadhi factories had been used to assemble 186 T-90 tanks at the two factories. India and Russia had signed an MoU in 2001 under which the Indian Army received 310 T-90 tanks, out of which 124 were bought fully formed and kits were imported for the remaining 186 which were assembled at Avadi. The entire order has since been executed by the Avadhi ordnance factory. Upgrade of T-72 tanks: In addition the Indian Army has decided to upgrade all the existing 1600 T-72 tanks in various phases ending 2020. Global tenders for the T-72 tanks would begin from next year itself and the upgrade of each T-72 tank is expected to be around $2m.

Currently Indian Army's mechanized formations are equipped with the T-72 M1 tanks with which the Indian Army have been indigenised at the state owned Heavy Vehicles Factory, at Avadhi in southern India, The Indian Army in 1997 floated a Request For Proposal for modernization of entire fleet of 2000 T-72 tanks. However, the Indian defense ministry in 2001 decided to upgrade the T-72 tanks in batches.

The government had then short-listed PCO-Cenzin, Warsaw of Poland; Elop Electro-Optics Industries Ltd of Israel and Thales, Paris, France for fire-control system; while IAI Electronics Group, Yahud, Israel, LITEF GmbH, Freiburg, Germany and Reutech Defence Industries (RDI) Ltd, Natal, South Africa had been short listed for supply for land navigation system and for radio sets GEC Marconi, United Kingdom and Tadiran Limited, Holon, Israel had been selected. The Indian Army is already facing serious shortage of tanks with fifty per cent of its 3500 tanks slated to go to the junkyard in another five years due to old age. Last year the Indian Army decided to junk its 800 Vijayanta tanks which were commissioned into service in 1966

 

[Keysersoze]

INDIA INCREASES DEFENCE SPENDING – ALLOCATIONS INADEQUATE
By Bulbul Singh

21 Aug 06.The Indian government has approved a jump in defense budget for the next five year plan period 2007-2012. Sources in the Planning Commission of India, said the defense budget will be around 2.55 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for the plan period 2007-12 compared to the current level of around 2.33 per cent of the GDP. An official of India's Planning Commission said assuming that India's GDP grows at around eighth per cent, would work out an allocation of around $141 billion for the five year period 2007-12, as compared to $50.8 billion in the ongoing five year plan period 2002-07.

This would mean around $30 billion would be available in 2007-12 for the purchase of fresh weapons and equipment from domestic and overseas markets. Currently, India imports over 35 per cent of weapons and weapons equipment requirements from imports. Indian defence forces have already planned to buy 126 Multirole Medium Range Combat Aircraft worth $7bn, 155mm howitzer guns worth $5bn, development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft worth over $2bn, spend over $17bn in the acquisition of submarines, fleet, and development of an indigenous aircraft carrier.

Besides, Indian defence forces have planned acquisition of satellites, setting up an Aerospace Command for the Indian Air Force, establishing advanced network centric warfare equipment, acquisition of advanced anti-ballistic missiles systems, air defence systems, and new generation radar worth billons of dollars. Besides, the Indian Navy needs to buy maritime reconnaissance aircraft like the Orions, and maritime helicopters. In addition Indian defence forces have also to spend on Nuclear Command Structures by setting up C4I networks costing billions of dollars.

An Indian Army official said, even the increase in defence allocations in the 2007-12 plan would fall short by at least $22bn so as to maintain the current level of combat worthiness. The official said, the Indian defence forces need around $15bn only to either replace or upgrade the mostly Russian weaponry bought in the 60 and 70s from the USSR which is now obsolete. During the first 15 years of Indian independence, India, after 1947, spent an average of 1.6 per cent of its GDP on defence.

The 1962 invasion on India marked a watershed in defence expenditure which rose to 3.8 per cent in 3.8 per cent of the GDP in the sixties. The second time the defence budget outlay of India was enhanced, was after the 1999 battle of Kargil with Pakistani backed Muslim fundamentalists. Thereafter defence spending jumped to around 2.8 per cent of the GDP in early 2000-01 when India made massive acquisition plans. The Indian Army official said, India spends around 2.34 per cent of its GDP on defence compared to 6.08 per cent by Pakistan, and 5.63 per cent by China.

 

[Keysersoze]

INDIA TO BUY USED MIRAGES FROM FRANCE
By Bulbul Singh

28 Sep 06. In order to fill the gaps in the depleting inventory of the Indian Air Force the Indian government has turned towards France for seeking help for procurement of used Mirage combat aircraft. A senior Indian Air Force official said that the defence ministry in principle has approved the Indian Air Force proposal to procure used combat aircraft currently operated by the French Air Force.

A team from the Indian Air Force conducted an in-house exercise early this year for global hunting of procurement of used aircraft and then it was decided that the Indian Air Force would approach governments of France and Russia for procurement of Mirage and MiG 29 aircraft. In July this year two teams of the Indian Air Force visited Moscow and Paris for evaluation of used MiG 29 aircraft with the Russian Air Force and the Mirage 2000-H aircraft with the French Air Force.

The experts’ team reported to the Indian defence ministry that the used MiG 29 aircraft with the Russian Air Force do not have extended life cycle option and re-equipping the Russian MiG 29 aircraft would turn out to be an expensive exercise. Therefore the Indian defence ministry rejected the idea of sourcing MiG 29 aircraft from Russia.

However the Indian Air Force team which went to Paris for the evaluation of old Mirage 2000-H aircraft currently with the French Air Force found the fleet highly combat worthy and recommended to the defence ministry that if power thrust of the aircraft could be extended then the French aircraft could serve the Indian Air Force at least by another 15 years. A senior Indian defence ministry official said, by end of the next year the sanctioned fleet strength of the Indian Air Force will fall from 666 aircraft to 522.

Therefore the Indian Air Force has no other option but to acquire used combat aircraft from overseas on priority basis, the official added. The defence ministry official described the slow induction process of the combat aircraft very unfortunate and also said that India's defence research agency, Defence Research and Development Organisation, DRDO has also not lived up to expectations which in 1997 said by the end of 2010 it will deliver over 100 indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, which is even today at prototype production state.

The defence ministry official said, procurement of 126 Medium Range Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) will be the biggest ever purchase made by India ever since its independence which would cost the government over $9bn. Sources in the Indian defence ministry said that the ruling United Progressive Alliance government led by the Congress Party had been marred with controversies in the past in various defence scandals and therefore the present government is too shy and slow to decide on big ticket defence purchases.

Sources further added that even if the ruling government floats the tender for the MMRCA early next year it will take at least three years to carry out technical evaluation and flight trials of the various combat aircraft which will participate in the bids. Moreover the government will further take additional three to five years to take a decision on short listing the company which will win the MMRCA contract.

Sources further added that there is a debate within the defence ministry and the Indian Air Force whether the government should place the contract to different original equipment manufacturers for license production to different combat aircraft. Once these issues are sorted out only then the defence ministry will float the global tender.

Early September this year a high level Indian defence team led by Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee visited Paris to hold talks for purchase of used Mirage 2000 aircraft. Mukherjee requested the French government that India would be very happy to procure at least 40 Mirage 2000-H aircraft with the French Air Force which are due for replacement.

Mukherjee gave an option proposal to the French government that if Paris also helps New Delhi to get 12 Mirage-5 aircraft from Qatar at the behest of the Indian government, in turn the Indian defence ministry will nominate the French defence major, Dassault International to be the overall technical advisor for upgrading the entire fleet of the Mirage 2000-H aircraft with the Indian Air Force.

Another defence ministry official here said, Mukherjee has requested the French government to help the Indian Air Force to upgrade its entire fleet of Mirage 2000-H aircraft to the standard level of Mirage 2000-9. Under Mukherjee's plans at least 20 aircraft would be upgraded by Dassault International in France and the remaining upgrade would be carried out at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited In Bangalore.

 

[Keysersoze]

NDIAN SUKOI COST DOUBLES
By Bulbul Singh 26 Jul 06.

The projected cost of the Indian manufactured Su 30MKI has been almost doubled from initial estimates of 2000. The cost for the production of 140 SU 30 MKI aircraft at Indian facilities has been placed at around $8.5bn from the initial estimates of $4.8bn when the project was approved in 2000. A defence ministry official said that the average price per aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is likiely to be over $8m more then that of the imported aircraft (SU 30) contracted in 1996. India signed a contract with Russia in 1996 worth $1.6bn for the purchase of 40 SU-30s. However calculating on the basis of the revised cost of production of 140 SU 30 MKI aircraft at HAL at $8.5bn up from the $4.8bn estimated cost in 2000, each Sukhoi aircraft manufactured in HAL will cost around $60m. An HAL official said, the cost escalation is on account of increase in specifications of the SU 30MKI as compared to the SU 30 imported from Russia.

Engines with thrust vectoring nozzles enable the SU 30 MKI to perform such manoeuvres as Cobra turn in Cobra. In these manoeuvres an angle of attack could reach 180 degrees. As for F-16 and F-18 aircraft their maximum angles of attack are 30 and 40 degrees, claimed the HAL official. The Indian defence ministry official admitted that there is an urgent need to freeze the cost of the SU 30MKI and the cost parameters as the cost to go up still further making the SU 30MKI very expensive. The defence ministry official revealed that the Indian government singed an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) with the foreign supplier's country (Russia) in October 2000 stipulating the parameters under which the license was proposed to be transferred to HAL.

In 2000 HAL was proposed the license manufacturer of 140 SU 30MKI aircraft at a total cost of $ 4.8bn. The 140 aircraft were to be delivered by HAL in four blocks and in four different phases in a span of 14 years between 2004-05 and 2017-18. Phase I envisaged delivery of aircraft, engine and other systems in ready to assemble kits by the Original Equipment Manufacturer to HAL. In phase II and III, articles would be assembled from Semi Knocked Down and Completely Knocked Down kits. The Phase Four envisaged manufacture of aircraft from raw material. HAL signed a technical collaboration with Russia's Irstruk Design Bureau for setting up dedicated Sukhoi production line at HAL's aircraft design center at Nasik. Russia's Irkutsk Aviation Production Association (IAPO), Irkutsk and HAL are the two partners in the Program. Under the agreement Russia will transfer technology for production of main frame production capabilities, instrumentation and fabrication-equipment, besides whole of testing equipment's for engine, weapon systems, avionics, and navigational systems.

The AI 31PF engines for the SU 30MKI and parts of the fuselage are being imported directly from Sukhoi's manufacturing facilities at Irkutsk in Siberia. Meanwhile production of the A1-31 PF engines for the SU 30MKI has also begun at HAL's Koraput Division, while mainframe & accessories are being made at the Lucknow & Hyderabad Divisions. Some key parts of the avionics suites for SU 30 MKI are being manufactured by Sextant Veronique, a subsidiary of the Thales group, and Sagem S.A. of France, El-Op Electro Optics Industries Ltd., Rehovot of Israel are supplying systems to project data onto the front part of the cockpit. Besides, the other companies involved in providing parts for the avionics include Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument-Engineering, Zhukovsky, and the Ramensky Instrument-Engineering Design Bureau of Ramenki of Russia. India's sate-owned defense research agency, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has also developed sub-systems for the SU 30MKI.

The first two indigenous aircraft (MKI version) took to the skies in October 2004, for flight tests and these were handed over to the Indian Air Force in March 2005. SU 30MKI aircraft can carry nuclear weapons inside China with mid-air refuelling facility and is tipped to be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force in future. Sources say, with the fleet strength of the Indian Air Force dwindling and the SU 30MKI being the mainstay of the force, the cost factor will be overlooked by the Indian defence planners.

 

[Keysersoze]

I forgot the link to these articles....

http://www.battle-technology.com/index.asp

 

[Adux]

India maintains overwhelming superiority over Pakistan,
What do you intend to prove by the sukhoi article, India hasnt cancelled the project has it. India can afford it. It just bought 40 more Sukhoi's.

Pakistani problems when compared to India's are simply humogous, even with its smaller size. india has got better everything, I fail to see your point

According to your articles, Vijyanta is already phased out, so where is the problem of maintance

 

[Lilo]

this article is lacking in substance...it was probably published in some small newpaper in india...despite discrimination and low resources how Pakistan has come forward to develop more advance missile system is OUT OF BELIEVE..the generals in Rawalpindi never tell what is on their mind and what is on the table..nor anybody in Pakistan is ever interested to show what delas they are making..Pakistan has got big orders and IDEAS is itself a big proof that the interested parties have their relationship with people in Ideas deep..Pakistan has always got what is essential keeping in view their needs..and they have done many times..people in New Delhi have always for some reason believed if Pakistan will not get f-16's they will be lacking to match..but they fail to realise with third generation J-17 Thunder build within..India is following a mentality of being a superpower..rushing to purchase large quantitiies..rushing with space programme..something they did'nt realise bigger does'n have to be better..ONE MAN IN SPACE 3,000 PEOPLE SUICIDING EVERY DAY IN THE SUICIDE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD SOUTH INDIA..IS THIS HOW THE WEST OR ASIAN TIGERS PROGRESSED..ONE THING IS FOR SURE INDIA IS STRUGGLING TO MAINTAIN BALANCE WITHIN..BUT THEIR STRONG DEMOCRACY AND CONTINUATION OF POLICIES WILL HELP THEM SUSTAIN..BUT SOME INTERNAL WEAKNESSES WHEN EVER THEY COME FORWARD WILL LEAD TO DISASTER....indians have a habbit to take any thing in their favour to the sky....one man sachin tendulkar who never helped them win one big match is like a Bhagwan...people suffering and living in misery is never highlighted this will lead to disaster in the future..one arms deal that never even happened was the most talked about fiction (bangalore it industry vs people living without clean drinking water..sanitation..shelter..nutrition food..clothes in the sub urbans off bangalore)and spending on military to come shoulder to China makes sense for the indians..nobody can understand how..country is for the people not for boundries and arms..

yeah thye may be pent up feelings but if they are untrue let me know..or ask me if you want me to prove it...

In ur post, the part regarding pakistan, i will not comment abt it, niaz has replied it for me

And regarding the rest , ill jus repeat them so that u can realize how absurd ur comments were and if u still dont get it... chk out the links below and see for ur self..

U said india is the "world suicide capital"
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/country_reports/en/index.html

that indians treat sachin (who never helped team india to win even "one" bigmatch) as their "bhagvan"
http://content-ind.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/35320.html

India is struggling to maintain "balance" within
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Gini_index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gini_since_WWII.gif

spending on military to come shoulder to China makes sense for us
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

people living without clean drinking water..sanitation..shelter..nutrition food..clothes in the sub urbans off bangalore)and

all developing countries along with india have these problems and EVERY BODY HERE KNOWS THIS...and still u took great pains to dwell on it...this just shows that u desperately wanted to say sometin to us indians...and went ahead sayin it.

and btw ,India had faced bigger problems and survived ,so u need not worry abt us ....

 

[Keysersoze]

India maintains overwhelming superiority over Pakistan,
What do you intend to prove by the sukhoi article, India hasnt cancelled the project has it. India can afford it. It just bought 40 more Sukhoi's.

Pakistani problems when compared to India's are simply humogous, even with its smaller size. india has got better everything, I fail to see your point

This is why I posted those articles (and I have plenty more from other sources)
There is superiority but by no means "Overwhelming". A lot of the purchases have been made in order to maintain current strength levels (or counter systems inducted or upgraded by Pak.)
Also to give support to my previous post. ok I will repost the relevant parts to show you what I mean.

A senior Indian defence ministry official said, by end of the next year the sanctioned fleet strength of the Indian Air Force will fall from 666 aircraft to 522.

Therefore the Indian Air Force has no other option but to acquire used combat aircraft from overseas on priority basis, the official added. The defence ministry official described the slow induction process of the combat aircraft very unfortunate and also said that India's defence research agency, Defence Research and Development Organisation, DRDO has also not lived up to expectations which in 1997 said by the end of 2010 it will deliver over 100 indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, which is even today at prototype production state.
Ok the above states that there will be a shortfall and that the new purchases are required to make up said shortfall.

An Indian Army official said, even the increase in defence allocations in the 2007-12 plan would fall short by at least $22bn so as to maintain the current level of combat worthiness. The official said, the Indian defence forces need around $15bn only to either replace or upgrade the mostly Russian weaponry bought in the 60 and 70s from the USSR which is now obsolete.
The important part of the above is the word MAINTAIN

The Indian Army fast paced the acquisition of additional tanks in line with Pakistan's efforts to induct additional homegrown Al Khalid tanks, and upgrade of the existing T-59 and plans to upgrade T-80 tanks bought from Ukraine. The Indian Army's plans to acquire main battle tanks on time has taken a severe setback following the delay in the homegrown tank Arjun by over a decade and the tank being finally even rejected by the Indian Army for combat worthiness.

Ok this shows that in order to maintain their level they had to purchase T-90's

The Indian Army is already facing serious shortage of tanks with fifty per cent of its 3500 tanks slated to go to the junkyard in another five years due to old age. Last year the Indian Army decided to junk its 800 Vijayanta tanks which were commissioned into service in 1966

Again systems are being replaced not added to....

So my point was simply there has not been much change in the parity levels. Again this was for the Pakistani members who worry too much about Indian purchases. Not as an excuse to start a argument with any Indian members.

 

[Keysersoze]

Damn that last post hurts my eyes!!!

 

[Adux]

Hmm,

I can see you are in one man quest to annihalte all those trigger happy indians, which might include myself at times.......lol
Replaced by far superior systems, which is not what is happening in the otherside of the border.
Indian defence expenditure is increasing by 22% very year, plus the indian GDP increases every year also. That is a phenomenal amount of money,