Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[LegionnairE]

True for avionics from Turkey maybe, but not critical engine parts from US right? And that's what I meant, if the aim would be to get a licence production, or a sanction prove solution, then the WZ-10 with avionics and weapons from Turkey would be the better choice.

Turkey dont need to worry about any engine as TEI(Tusaş Engine Industries inc.) can produce any aircraft engine under licence, but we must concentrate on new designs I think...

And If pakistan buys theese helos from Turkey, they can put any engine on it surely

 

[sancho]

Turkey dont need to worry about any engine as TEI(Tusaş Engine Industries inc.) can produce any aircraft engine under licence, but we must concentrate on new designs I think...

And If pakistan buys theese helos from Turkey, they can put any engine on it surely

I never said that Turkey needs to worry, but as you said too, you can build them under licence only! So if Pakistan wants to buy this helicopter, the US is still the key, just like Italy will have a say too, because at the end it is still developed by them.
Turkey of course won't have problems with them, or the US, but the sale to Pakistan could still be difficult and for sure not sanction prove.

Turkey is a growing market and its defense industry is growing too, but just as India, you are still too dependend on foreign arms and techs. So just like India, it is in your interest to be less dependend and go for more indigenous developments.
Another similarity both countries have is the relationship with US and Russia, although we might be closer to Russia and you to US, there are not many countries left in the world, that can benefit from weapons and techs of both sides! Mi 28 and Ka52 was on offer, S 300 and S400 are on offer now and maybe in future Turkey could get a chance to Pak Fa.

Sorry, if I gone too off topic!

 

[cabatli_53]

As you said too, you can build them under licence only! So if Pakistan wants to buy this helicopter, the US is still the key, just like Italy will have a say too, because at the end it is still developed by them.

Describing T-129 Atak program like that is not true because Italy and Turkey has been cooperating to develop T-129 Atak helicopter. Both Italy and Turkey have a say something When It is needed. You can see the emblem of TAI and Aselsan even in Agusta Westland's official webpage about T-129.

About Licence, The fuselage production and further upgrades of this helicopter will be performed and certified by TAI and If TAI demands, TAI will give licence rights of T-129 for 3th countries to make them produce the components. I mean TAI is the owner of fuselage and design for 3th countries so All responsibilities-risk including certification of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI. That's why All intellectual and property rights of T-129 Atak and future versions belongs to TAI.

but Both country will export this helicopter with Turkish avionics, ECMS and missile systems. Hydrolic, gears and transmission development workshare belongs to Agusta Westland for export markets.

I mean After this period, You will see the name of TAI at every phase of T-129 block-1, block-2 programs...

 

[cabatli_53]

TAI light helicopter program...

 

[sancho]

Describing T-129 Atak program like that is not true because Italy and Turkey has been cooperating to develop T-129 Atak helicopter. Both Italy and Turkey have a say something When It is needed. You can see the emblem of TAI and Aselsan even in Agusta Westland's official webpage about T-129.

Hi cabatli_53, isn't that what I said too? That Italy will have a say in T129s too?

About Licence, The fuselage production and further upgrades of this helicopter will be performed and certified by TAI and If TAI demands, TAI will give licence rights of T-129 for 3th countries to make them produce the components. I mean TAI is the owner of fuselage and design for 3th countries so All responsibilities-risk including certification of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI. That's why All intellectual and property rights of T-129 Atak and future versions belongs to TAI.

I have some big doubts about this, because the T129 is not a new co-developed helicopter with new design, or fuselage. It uses the AW129 as the base and improved several techs and capabilities, but exactly the design of the fuselage is still the same, so must belong to Agosta Westland.
Just as you said before, TAI might have the intellectual and property rights of T129 and it's future uprgades, but only of this versions, or the differences it has to AW129!
Turkey might have the licence production rights for the fuselage, but can't provide it to others, whereas techs, or weapons developed by Turkey, of course can be build in Pakistan for example too.

but Both country will export this helicopter with Turkish avionics, ECMS and missile systems. Hydrolic, gears and transmission development workshare belongs to Agusta Westland for export markets.

This also proves what I said, although this version of the AW129 was developed for TAI (and that should explain why it will have emblems of TAI), at the end it is still Agosta Westland as the main brain and company behind it.

 

[Jigs]

Hi cabatli_53, isn't that what I said too? That Italy will have a say in T129s too?



I have some big doubts about this, because the T129 is not a new co-developed helicopter with new design, or fuselage. It uses the AW129 as the base and improved several techs and capabilities, but exactly the design of the fuselage is still the same, so must belong to Agosta Westland.
Just as you said before, TAI might have the intellectual and property rights of T129 and it's future uprgades, but only of this versions, or the differences it has to AW129!
Turkey might have the licence production rights for the fuselage, but can't provide it to others, whereas techs, or weapons developed by Turkey, of course can be build in Pakistan for example too.



This also proves what I said, although this version of the AW129 was developed for TAI (and that should explain why it will have emblems of TAI), at the end it is still Agosta Westland as the main brain and company behind it.

I suggest you read the agreements before speculating on what rights we have.

"Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform. There are also no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries (excluding Italy and the United Kingdom)"

 

[sancho]

I suggest you read the agreements before speculating on what rights we have.

"Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform. There are also no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries (excluding Italy and the United Kingdom)"

"for the export, or transfer of the platform", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.

 

[Super Falcon]

well i heared that turkey want to buy attack helicopters from other country 9 of them forgotenn the name of country

 

[cabatli_53]

"for the export, or transfer of the platform", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.

You should read more things about T-129 Atak program because;

-TAI can choose the costumers and sell T-129 Atak whoever They want.
-TAI can give the licence rights of production for 3th countries excluding England and Italy.
-ATAK team including TAI is working together to design-develop T-129 Atak. T-129 will be more bigger (2m) fuselage than A-129. TAI has also joined into design phase of T-129 with Agusta. I mean every institues have some responsibilities to carry out in this team but At the end, All rights of final product called T-129 will belongs to TAI and Agusta Westland.

and All responsibilities of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI, not Agusta...

 

[Jigs]

"for the export, or transfer of the platform", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.

If course we can provide parts we are the ones producing them. Obviously the initial design is Italian no one is denying that. T-129 is a highly upgraded variant that Turkey will be manufacturing. It is similar to the deal with the F-2 with Japan and the U.S. . The difference being we can export the T-129 to other countries meaning we are the ones selling them not Italy so it is our own platform based off an Italian one.

I am a little confused by what point your trying to make. If pakistan picks the T-129 we are the ones that will be producing and delivering them and we will be getting the money for it. What more is needed ?

 

[cabatli_53]

With the Collaboration Agreement, signed between TAI and AgustaWestland, let alone having the right to use and administer the intellectual property of the T129 ATAK Helicopter, TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter. The Collaboration Agreement also provides TAI with the right to sell and market the T129 ATAK Helicopter worldwide.

The Contract Of The ATAK Program Becomes Effective | INTERNATIONAL AVIATION NEWS

 

[cabatli_53]

"for the export, or transfer of the platform", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.

Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.
ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success


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TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter.

http://www.aviationnews.eu/2008/06/24/the-contract-of-the-atak-program-becomes-effective/


Not: The workshare of TAI is designment of Fuselage with Agusta and sole production of all body components, integrating Aselsan electronics, avionics into fuselage, certification...

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January 2009 while the Preliminary Design Review is ongoing. The new dedicated facility, staffed by more than 70 Turkish and AgustaWestland integrated team technicians, comprises an assembly area for the T129 prototypes as well as office space for the T129 team members. The entire facility has been designed to bring together the integrated team into a single location to enable all industry partners to work together in a highly efficient manner.

http://www.agustawestland.com/news/agustawestland-opens-new-dedicated-t129-facility

 

[cabatli_53]

DSA 2010 TAI stand

 

[cabatli_53]

From Old TAI official webpage;

With the Collaboration Agreement signed with AgustaWestland, TAI shall have;

· Intellectual property rights of the new configuration of the helicopter

· Sole sourcing rights in the world for the fuselage, including Final Assembly and Flight Operations

· Sales rights for the whole world excluding Italy and England


I think those 3 items explain what we are talking about in here...


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TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the “T-129 attack helicopters” to the world

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-shortlists-2-attack-helicopters-updated-02397/

 

[sancho]

well i heared that turkey want to buy attack helicopters from other country 9 of them forgotenn the name of country

9 AW 129 from Italy, which makes sense because of the commonality to T129:

Turkey To Buy 9 European A129 Attack Helicopters - Defense News

If course we can provide parts we are the ones producing them. Obviously the initial design is Italian no one is denying that. T-129 is a highly upgraded variant that Turkey will be manufacturing. It is similar to the deal with the F-2 with Japan and the U.S. . The difference being we can export the T-129 to other countries meaning we are the ones selling them not Italy so it is our own platform based off an Italian one.

I am a little confused by what point your trying to make. If pakistan picks the T-129 we are the ones that will be producing and delivering them and we will be getting the money for it. What more is needed ?

That's exaclty what I said too, I only said that it is doubtful that Turkey can give licence production rights to foreign customers, without the approval of Italy, because at the end it is still an Italian developed helicopter.
Turkey can sale T129 to export customers, but will produce all parts in Turkey, that's why it's a great deal for Turkey.

-TAI can give the licence rights of production for 3th countries excluding England and Italy.

This is the excerpt that Jigs posted:

Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform. There are also no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries

Can you explain where it says anything regarding licences for 3rd countries?

-ATAK team including TAI is working together to design-develop T-129 Atak. T-129 will be more bigger (2m) fuselage than A-129. TAI has also joined into design phase of T-129 with Agusta. I mean every institues have some responsibilities to carry out in this team but At the end, All rights of final product called T-129 will belongs to TAI and Agusta Westland.

and All responsibilities of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI, not Agusta...

The fuselage is bigger to house the new engines, but the design of the helicopter didn't change, only the integrated techs and weapons.
Compare it to the WAH Apache that AW produces, it also has different engines, weapons and techs, but is still only a version of the Apache, not a new helicopter. The advantage that Turkey has, is the licence production and sale rights, that the US would never provide.
It's undeniable a good development for Turkey, but it still is a version of the AW129 and that's why licences to 3rd countries will only possible with Italian approval.