Pakistan Army | News and Discussions

[iLION12345_1]

Maray bhai plz no argument on this....wt I tell u has already been decided.
Like I said as soon as replacements become available AZ will go.

There has been no such decision made so far, if there have been then kindly give some sort of proof.

The AZs are in far too numerous number to be Replaced anytime soon. Especially Not with the 500+ other tanks to replace first (Type 59 and 69).
If such was the case the army would not be expanding the armored core rather it would be focused on replacing AZs As you say, Instead the core is being expanded as we speak With AK-1 (and will continue to be expanded with AK-2 or improved AK-1)

Yes the AZs will move, that is inevitable, they may move back from the frontlines, they may even move all the way to the West, but I doubt any decision at all has been made yet, especially not one to transfer them to FC. Not until India operates T72s And the armored core needs to reach numbers around 3000 tanks.

The army doesn’t make such decisions half a decade in advance when it doesn’t even know what will be the situation next year, at that point you’re just assuming such a thing will happen because it seems most likely (in which case clarify that, don’t call it an army decision without it being one.)

Bottom line is; it will take years to replace the tanks before AZ, let alone AZs Themselves, so it’s best to wait until we see it rather than assuming decisions several years down the line have been instinctively or hastily made.

 

[Raja Porus]

Yara hindsight is one deadly thing.

Agreed dear, but I was infact inquiring about the technical details,if that bridgehead was enough for offensive ops.
I'm not talking about why it was not done.

There has been no such decision made so far, if there have been then kindly give some sort of proof.

The AZs are in far too numerous number to be Replaced anytime soon. Especially Not with the 500+ other tanks to replace first (Type 59 and 69).
If such was the case the army would not be expanding the armored core rather it would be focused on replacing AZs As you say, Instead the core is being expanded as we speak With AK-1 (and will continue to be expanded with AK-2 or improved AK-1)

Yes the AZs will move, that is inevitable, they may move back from the frontlines, they may even move all the way to the West, but I doubt any decision at all has been made yet, especially not one to transfer them to FC. Not until India operates T72s And the armored core needs to reach numbers around 3000 tanks.

The army doesn’t make such decisions half a decade in advance when it doesn’t even know what will be the situation next year, at that point you’re just assuming such a thing will happen because it seems most likely (in which case clarify that, don’t call it an army decision without it being one.)

Bottom line is; it will take years to replace the tanks before AZ, let alone AZs Themselves, so it’s best to wait until we see it rather than assuming decisions several years down the line have been instinctively or hastily made.

Exactly my reasons to believe that PA will be raising AZs to raise new formations; AKs to raise new regiments and VT4s for replacement (though there may be exceptions.

My grand father who happened to be a pow in East Pakistan

I have five very close family members (including paternal and maternal grandfathers) who faught in both 65 as well as 71 and three of them were POWs.

 

[Signalian]

Actually I was ASKING if that particular bridgehead could be used for an offense by II Corps towards Fazilka?

Short reply, yes.

Back in 1971, the bridgehead was created and 105 Bde Group went on defensive after creating the bridgehead. Now if you read on wikipedia it will tell you glorious stories of Indian victory in Fazilka, how the attack by 105 Bde was stopped and Pakistani attack on Fazilka was stalled and what not. It didn't happen like that.

105 Bde Group had 18 Baluch Regt, 7 Punjab Regt, 6 FF Regt, a battalion of Rangers and a Squadron of up gunned Shermans supported with an artillery regiment.

Facing was Indian Army 67 Bde Group comprising three infantry battalions (4 Jat Regt, 3 Assam Rifles, 15 Rajput Regt), one field regiment, one medium battery ,one independent armoured squadron of Sherman-75s from the Infantry School and another armoured squadron equipped with T-54 tanks with two battalions worth of the Border Security Force (BSF). Later another battalion 3/11 Gorkha Rifles was also allotted and took part in combat. Another Armor Squadron was sent in combat after Indian armor took losses.

In reality, 105 Bde Group attacked BSF posts after shelling and then started its advance towards Distributary and captured it along with a bridge or two. Rest of the bridges (total 23) were blown up by Indian Army in haste as it was thought that 105 bde Group will keep advancing into Fazilka. This hampered any offensive moves Indian Army for future. 105 Bde Group had accomplished its task by creating bridgehead and now awaited II Corps to consolidate and advance through Fazilka.

II Corps was made up of 1st Armd Div and 33 Infantry Div. In 1971, both armies didnt employ their Armor Divs, both waiting for other to launch its Armd Div first and thus both lost initiative. 33 Infantry Div was divided and its battalions were sent towards Sind. So II Corps wasn't coming.

What was 105 Bde Group to do then ?
II Corps wasn't coming to take advantage of 105 Bde Group gains so the bridgehead were needlessly created. 105 Bde then bore the brunt of 5 failed counter attacks by 67 Bde Group. The Indian Brigade Commander was sacked and replaced with a new commander. The Indian GOC of the sector was wounded in action as he came to aid the Indian Brigade Commander along with his Commander Artillery Brigade, and was thus replaced too. These changes were made by Indian Chief of Army himself during the war witnessing the dismal performance of 67 Bde Group. It was after 15th December that 67 Bde Group was able to take a small part of land that 105 Bde Group had held while the 1971 war ended soon.

Indian Army's 67 Bde Group had lost 190 killed, 425 wounded and 196 missing in action with loss of 8 T-54s and several Shermans. 4 Jat Regiment and 3 Assam Regt had suffered the most causalities. Out of the 8 T-54s destroyed, 4 were destroyed by Major Shabbir Shareef's B-Coy 6 FF Regt. This was the result of 5 failed Indian counter attacks between 7-11 December and the fight after that till end of war.

While the Indians celebrated that Pakistan Army couldnt take Fazilka, it was the Indian Army 67 Bde Group that failed to dislodge Pakistan's Army 105 Bde Group which had crossed IB and captured distributary area waiting for II Corps to exploit its gains while II Corps never showed up.

 

[SQ8]

Sorry, just making sure you haven't levelled some deep sarcasm at our leadership. We are supposed to feel good by comparing ourselves to a failed, corrupt government that was installed as puppets by occupying forces? Am I reading this correctly?

Why should you be feeling good? - you are leveling allegations of mass discontent and failed policies but other than your opinions (and frankly no one cares who you are or whether you are Pakistan’s own Einstein) - there are plenty within the military establishment and government who are smart enough to recognize these issues and be whistleblowers to the media. There are plenty of mistakes the hybrid setup is making but none of them echo the “sky is falling” chicken little routine being proposed here by yourself or the opposition.

 

[CriticalThought]

Why should you be feeling good? - you are leveling allegations of mass discontent and failed policies but other than your opinions (and frankly no one cares who you are or whether you are Pakistan’s own Einstein) - there are plenty within the military establishment and government who are smart enough to recognize these issues and be whistleblowers to the media. There are plenty of mistakes the hybrid setup is making but none of them echo the “sky is falling” chicken little routine being proposed here by yourself or the opposition.

For some, the sky fell the day Articles 370 and 35-A were revoked unilaterally by India and we became mere 'ambassadors of Kashmir'. If this doesn't create the 'sky is falling' panic in a majority of our people, then we are a dead nation. There is much more I want to say, but you cannot make the blind see or the deaf hear.

 

[SQ8]

For some, the sky fell the day Articles 370 and 35-A were revoked unilaterally by India and we became mere 'ambassadors of Kashmir'. If this doesn't create the 'sky is falling' panic in a majority of our people, then we are a dead nation. There is much more I want to say, but you cannot make the blind see or the deaf hear.

What did you do about the sky falling? Specifically what could you propose as steps?
Throughout your entire tirade you have never presented actual actions that could have been taken by the hybrid setup with their expected results otherwise.
Instead, criticism for the sake of criticism only belies frustration of being invalid against the Indian actions(among the host of other life issues) which is understandable but at the end - I would suggest you pick up a gun and do something about it then, so far you haven’t proposed anything that you yourself seem to be willing to do.

 

[CriticalThought]

What did you do about the sky falling? Specifically what could you propose as steps?
Throughout your entire tirade you have never presented actual actions that could have been taken by the hybrid setup with their expected results otherwise.
Instead, criticism for the sake of criticism only belies frustration of being invalid against the Indian actions(among the host of other life issues) which is understandable but at the end - I would suggest you pick up a gun and do something about it then, so far you haven’t proposed anything that you yourself seem to be willing to do.

Step 1: let's get ourselves out of the financial mess. How does that sound? Step 2 shall be nationwide education. We can discuss that in the future. Happy?

 

[iLION12345_1]

Agreed dear, but I was infact inquiring about the technical details,if that bridgehead was enough for offensive ops.
I'm not talking about why it was not done.

Exactly my reasons to believe that PA will be raising AZs to raise new formations; AKs to raise new regiments and VT4s for replacement (though there may be exceptions.

I have five very close family members (including paternal and maternal grandfathers) who faught in both 65 as well as 71 and three of them were POWs.

Brigadier Munir (SJ), 71 war hero and POW is my great-uncle

 

[PanzerKiel]

If I'm not wrong in 71, 105 inf bde(which included Shabbir Shareef's 6FF) had made a similar bridge head in suliemanke which could've been exploited in a move towards Fazilka?

Nopes, that action was technically not a real bridgehead, nor was it intended to be one. That action was intended to improve the defensibility of 105 Brigade front and stalling a major Indian offensive which was intended in this sector with possible objective of Suleimanke Headworks.

Agreed. But Pakistani inf divs have a single regt and few have whole bdes. This sole regt will be the main armd asset of the whole div thus inf support like the one you mentioned will the least if 14 div's responsibilities especially considering its area of deployment. Central/southern Punjab might have to face the onslaught of:
Two Commands, broken down as follows
-2×armd divs,
-3×RAPIDS,
-9×Inf divs
-2×Arty divs
-5×Indp armd/mech bdes
(All of this depending on which axis of advance IA chooses,and unlike most people I think central/southern Punjab is going to be the major battle ground for mech forces instead of Sindh)
To face this (again IF IA chooses this axis) is PA's 31 corps;
-26 Mech div
-35 Inf div
-14th(mech div?)
-Might as well;1×inf div from 11 corps,Peshawar
During force assessment, I believe we should avoid bringing in factors regarding enemy like slow mobilization,interdiction, logistics etc etc.
The one thing that is in our favour are the defence canals and we shall base our defences on them, still I think given the odds our forces in this theatre may face they should be equipped with better tanks so that each inf div has a reasonable armd support of atleast one regt if not a bde allowing it to do limited counterattacking, exploiting and offenses for tactical objectives without requiring support of the 26 mech div.
In this way 26 mech will suffer minimum attrition while completely preserving our II corps.

your info now more than a decade old..... for Pakistan you need to add an additional maybe 2-3 mechanized divisions, an armored brigade to EACH infantry division....and much more...

 

[Raja Porus]

The Indian Brigade Commander was sacked and replaced with a new commander.

It is to be noted that Indians changed their GOC and bde commanders thrice in those twelve days.

In reality, 105 Bde Group attacked BSF posts after shelling

As far as I've read, Shabbir's B company had to advance silently so as not to alert the Indian positions on the eastern bank otherwise the attack would've been futile.

Brigadier Munir (SJ), 71 war hero and POW is my great-uncle

Brigadier Imtiaz,AC is mine.

Nopes, that action was technically not a real bridgehead, nor was it intended to be one. That action was intended to improve the defensibility of 105 Brigade front and stalling a major Indian offensive which was intended in this sector with possible objective of Suleimanke Headworks.

That was what I wanted to ask.

for Pakistan you need to add an additional maybe 2-3 mechanized divisions, an armored brigade to EACH infantry division....and much more...

I was not talking about raising armd bdes with EACH div, what I was saying was that 14 div ought to have better tanks not more..

 

[Zarvan]

CH 4 in my opinion serves two goals. It's good strike platform but only four of them also indicates we would use them extensively to get our pilots trained. And when Army has enough pilots trained they would immediately get CH 5 or even bigger Drones.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I was not talking about raising armd bdes with EACH div, what I was saying was that 14 div ought to have better tanks not more..

Strike elements including Armored divisions and independent armored brigades are at a higher priority.

 

[IceCold]

Strike elements including Armored divisions and independent armored brigades are at a higher priority.

How do you propose supporting these strike elements without a decent gunship in place? Considering our strike divisions will be up against Indian Apaches.

 

[PanzerKiel]

How do you propose supporting these strike elements without a decent gunship in place? Considering our strike divisions will be up against Indian Apaches.

Gunship against gunship, tank against tank, Fighter against fighter, ship against ship.......thats not military tactics.....

Strike elements, if they get gunship support would be nice enough.....but gunship support is not necessary for their operation, they already have plenty of manpads and mechanized AD elements embedded amongst them to bring any gunship down.

 

[Sifar zero]

Gunship against gunship, tank against tank, Fighter against fighter, ship against ship.......thats not military tactics.....

Strike elements, if they get gunship support would be nice enough.....but gunship support is not necessary for their operation, they already have plenty of manpads and mechanized AD elements embedded amongst them to bring any gunship down.

The TB2 from Turkey is a great choice with its 4 hardpoints that can carry MAM L's would be great to blunt armored offensives by India plus they are really cheap and if some are shot down it would not effect us that much.
And not to forget that the TB2 helped the Azeris win the NK war. Imagine a 4 Million $ TB2 destroying a 100 Million $ S400.