Pakistan Army has 570 VT 4 on order and with TOT

[PanzerKiel]

720 mm penetration will require significant work, perhaps a new longer tungsten rod maybe needed. Is this the case with the newer round?

Trials for new rounds have already been done. Pretty advanced stage now. Talk is of 850 mm as well, but a bit later.

 

[Dazzler]

Trials for new rounds have already been done. Pretty advanced stage now. Talk is of 850 mm as well, but a bit later.

Gosh. Are we preparing to confront Leo 2 and Abrams? For indians, our current arsenal is more than enough even if they get hands on proryv 3.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Gosh. Are we preparing to confront Leo 2 and Abrams? For indians, our current arsenal is more than enough even if they get hands on proryv 3.

APS and enhanced penetration rounds are the talk of the day now. You can well imagine where we are heading to.

 

[AlKardai]

APS and enhanced penetration rounds are the talk of the day now. You can well imagine where we are heading to.

India does not field heavy tanks as such, surely this would not be necessary?

Tanks such as the Arjun are low in number, and T90s don't require specialised shells as such to pop

 

[sparten]

I believe it's the other way around. It's just that the surveillance capability was acquired first. Otherwise, as far as present day use is concerned, it's a perfect balance.

Just how survivable will strike drones be against a peer opponent with a modern airforce.

For surveillance a UAV can stand off a few hundred KM (depending on altitude and local conditions). For strike a few KM.

 

[Signalian]

APS and enhanced penetration rounds are the talk of the day now. You can well imagine where we are heading to.

Standardisation of all Armored formations to a common level of weaponry and protection is important too.

Trials for new rounds have already been done. Pretty advanced stage now. Talk is of 850 mm as well, but a bit later.

Would certainly consider if the MBT, gun or ammo was to be exported to certain nations.

 

[retaxis]

tanks arent meant to be used against other tanks

 

[alimobin memon]

APS and enhanced penetration rounds are the talk of the day now. You can well imagine where we are heading to.

That means t14 or t90m is coming to India so Pakistan is preparing for the obvious.

Trials for new rounds have already been done. Pretty advanced stage now. Talk is of 850 mm as well, but a bit later.

Logical. As naiza is almost 2 decades old news now. So having 700mm plus by now is possible. Afaik based on some 90s and early 2000s books from oxford on pak army. Pak army had after 90s significant advantages is apsfds rounds.

Gosh. Are we preparing to confront Leo 2 and Abrams? For indians, our current arsenal is more than enough even if they get hands on proryv 3.

I think with 600m+ rounds that pak already fielda are dangerous agains leo 2a4 ans m1a1 and m1a2 in some scenarios.

 

[kingQamaR]

Just wondering why our Pakistan army have never trialed the Chinese light tank Vt-5 designed and made for mountain warfare like Kashmir

 

[arslank03]

Drones are cheap versatile agile and fast. Any armoured threat is best neutralised using drones rather tan tank vs tank. Ukraine and Armenia has proved this concept to be the best. Why are we still stuck k Toyota corolla being the best car mentality even here?

Armenia proved this because Azerbaijan was able to fly within their airspace, against their armoured columns with impunity. With no proper AD or air coverage. Both PA and IA operate and deploy a large variety of mobile SAM's designed primarily to protect against these threats. On top of this, both PA and IA have access to large varieties of LR sensors from AWACS to ground based stuff or even esm stuff, supported by respective air forces to exactly prevent what happened in Armenia from recurring here.

Ukraine is another story, Russians are actually incompetent, their organisational structure is fractured, there is no integration of anything, RuAF is sitting idly mostly, Russian AD controllers dont have access to proper IFF, the list goes on.

Not every lesson is applicable. Not sure when people will stop harping on about tanks being useless because drones exist. Drones and tanks serve very different purposes, i am sure we will see significant drone losses in future conflicts when adversaries go toe to toe with functioning air coverage lol

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Just wondering why our Pakistan army have never trialed the Chinese light tank Vt-5 designed and made for mountain warfare like Kashmir

Because you can't drive tanks over mountains. Do a quick search for AJK and GB topographic maps.

 

[arslank03]

And Ukraine and Armenia wars?? Tanks got decimated. U think their planner never thought of that? Its also down to availability and range.

Legacy soviet AD stands no chance against modern threats.

Take a look at Armenian losses, the majority being OSA. The Armenians also used the 9M33 missile, a very, very poor missile by todays standards. The Ukrainians are just receiving them now and are claiming 50% pK with them, that's with experienced, hardened operators (unlike the Armenians.) The 9M33 missile has a maximum engagement altitude of like 16,000ft. This gave literal impunity to anything flying even remotely above that altitude, such as the magical drones you keep going on about.

In the case of Tor MK2M, it was a weird one, the system was killed indoors, it was driving, went into a building, hit by a harop. I am not sure of the other one as i cannot particularly be bothered to look it up because it changes nothing.

The real lesson from Armenia is this:
Provide adequate coverage for your ground formations, otherwise, if you don't, the gaps will be exploited. That is it.

 

[KaiserX]

Armenia proved this because Azerbaijan was able to fly within their airspace, against their armoured columns with impunity. With no proper AD or air coverage. Both PA and IA operate and deploy a large variety of mobile SAM's designed primarily to protect against these threats. On top of this, both PA and IA have access to large varieties of LR sensors from AWACS to ground based stuff or even esm stuff, supported by respective air forces to exactly prevent what happened in Armenia from recurring here.

Ukraine is another story, Russians are actually incompetent, their organisational structure is fractured, there is no integration of anything, RuAF is sitting idly mostly, Russian AD controllers dont have access to proper IFF, the list goes on.

Not every lesson is applicable. Not sure when people will stop harping on about tanks being useless because drones exist. Drones and tanks serve very different purposes, i am sure we will see significant drone losses in future conflicts when adversaries go toe to toe with functioning air coverage lol

What that literally makes no sense. Ukrain literally had 30+ s300 batteries alone at the onset of the war…. Now they have dozens of advanced western sam systems are well. Incompetence is a part of the story but you cant discount Ukraines air defence umbrella

 

[arslank03]

What that literally makes no sense. Ukrain literally had 30+ s300 batteries alone at the onset of the war…. Now they have dozens of advanced western sam systems are well. Incompetence is a part of the story but you cant discount Ukraines air defence umbrella

Again, S300P batteries from once upon a time ago. You are once again asking something of a system that it was not designed to do. The reference threat back when the S300P was designed was fighters. The way we keep our systems relevant for different threats is software and hardware upgrades, neither of which Ukrainian s300p's received- i assume as they were stored.

The S300 was evolved multiple times to stay relevant with the threats of the time. This is why the S400 also receives multiple missile types to ensure it is able to intercept a wider array of targets. Even then, it relies on shorter ranged systems like TOR, Pantsir etc to provide protection for itself, because, it was designed for a different purpose- wide area AAW.

They have dozens of modern western sam systems now, on which they dont have huuge amounts of experience on, but even then, seem to be taking care of the drone threat pretty well now. Significant numbers of shaheds are being knocked out of the sky, the high profile large scale attacks we saw in the start no longer occur. Whats the point you're making? Because what i said still stands, you arent seeing much air force activity, therefore the airspace is largely open to whoever wants to use it, with bubbles of AD over certain areas, because you cant get a well designed IADS like we have and potentially the Indians have overnight.

What that literally makes no sense. Ukrain literally had 30+ s300 batteries alone at the onset of the war…. Now they have dozens of advanced western sam systems are well. Incompetence is a part of the story but you cant discount Ukraines air defence umbrella

oh and PS, against these kind of threats, guns work the best, that is why you will see the PA/PAF adopting a solution similar to Pantsir or the Chinese, with Guns and Missiles on a single chassis, providing interception capabilities for higher altitude drones and also LM's in their terminal stages by literally throwing up a cloud of tungsten.

 

[Trango Towers]

Armenia proved this because Azerbaijan was able to fly within their airspace, against their armoured columns with impunity. With no proper AD or air coverage. Both PA and IA operate and deploy a large variety of mobile SAM's designed primarily to protect against these threats. On top of this, both PA and IA have access to large varieties of LR sensors from AWACS to ground based stuff or even esm stuff, supported by respective air forces to exactly prevent what happened in Armenia from recurring here.

Ukraine is another story, Russians are actually incompetent, their organisational structure is fractured, there is no integration of anything, RuAF is sitting idly mostly, Russian AD controllers dont have access to proper IFF, the list goes on.

Not every lesson is applicable. Not sure when people will stop harping on about tanks being useless because drones exist. Drones and tanks serve very different purposes, i am sure we will see significant drone losses in future conflicts when adversaries go toe to toe with functioning air coverage lol

Yes and that's why the whole world is moving towards reducing armour and increasing drones. Stupid them hey! What do they know when we have PDF experts