Pakistan Army acquiring 100 Battle Tanks

[Fieldmarshal]

Before we go for AK II we need to concentrate on AK I and remove the kinks from it, so we can integrate it into PA completely.

N this talk of VT4 integration into PA looks premature at best as the prob. Besetting AK I are their in VT4. PA for that reason is look at subsystems from other sources.
If it does at all becomes part of PA than it will form the second tear n will replace the t59 and it's upgrade Al zarrar.
Al Khalid n t80ud will form the cutting edge as nothing beat AK and t80ud after it's current retrofit, will be a beast capable of handling any thing india has to offer.

 

[Gryphon]

Basically T-59's and it can also happen that Type-85 formations are transferred to infantry formations while AK series takes over.

I don't think Type 85-IIAP's will be transferred to IDs after the ongoing modernization program is completed. The platform has room for further upgrades.

ask Ukraine for surplus T-80's.

T-80UD is the only tank powered by the 6TD-1 diesel engine and the place where PA may find surplus examples is Russia and not Ukraine.

Ukraine didn't retain a large no. of T-80UD's after selling 320 to Pakistan. Now, it may refuse to sell the leftover examples in UA service/storage due to the ongoing conflict.

 

[Signalian]

I don't think Type 85-IIAP's will be transferred to IDs after the ongoing modernization program is completed. The platform has room for further upgrades.



T-80UD is the only tank powered by the 6TD-1 diesel engine and the place where PA may find surplus examples is Russia and not Ukraine.

Ukraine didn't retain a large no. of T-80UD's after selling 320 to Pakistan. Now, it may refuse to sell the leftover examples in UA service/storage due to the ongoing conflict.

If more IABG's and IMBG's are formed, yes the T-85 III would require to be shifted into those. The story of T-80 UD and T-85 III is about making decisions almost in an emergency. It has not really worked out wonders in the longer run, although it has kept the MBT fleet afloat. IA went for T-72's and stuck with it, then went with T-90's and ordered thousands. China went onto modernization from T-59 to T-88 to T-90 to T-96 and then is at T-99. Most other countries are sticking to one or two types. PA has 6 Types for an Army with small Armoured Corps. 250 T-85 III, 320 T-80 UD, 400 AK, 600 AZ and the rest T-59 and T-69. This gives so many choices of expansion towards T-80 UD, towards AZ , towards AK and AK-I.

T-85 had problems with engine but it was chosen because of its main gun, 125mm which no other MBT of PA had before it, almost at end of 1980's. It had to match IA T-72 in combat. 250 or 300 examples is not justice with this MBT. M1 was rejected because of gun, weight issues. PA held the license to produce T-85 but stopped.

The engine problems led to its downfall. This means it was not a clever acquisition although the engine problem was finally fixed and then the story comes to T-80 UD.

If the internal layout of Ukrainian T-80 and Russian T-80 are the same, then there are few thousand Russian T-80's stored, even a few hundred would suffice since Pakistan exports in hundreds as seen in the past. If the price is right without upgrades, PA can upgrade it to bring commonality between both Ukrainian and Russian T-80.

 

[帅的一匹]

If more IABG's and IMBG's are formed, yes the T-85 III would require to be shifted into those. The story of T-80 UD and T-85 III is about making decisions almost in an emergency. It has not really worked out wonders in the longer run, although it has kept the MBT fleet afloat. IA went for T-72's and stuck with it, then went with T-90's and ordered thousands. China went onto modernization from T-59 to T-88 to T-90 to T-96 and then is at T-99. Most other countries are sticking to one or two types. PA has 6 Types for an Army with small Armoured Corps. 250 T-85 III, 320 T-80 UD, 400 AK, 600 AZ and the rest T-59 and T-69. This gives so many choices of expansion towards T-80 UD, towards AZ , towards AK and AK-I.

T-85 had problems with engine but it was chosen because of its main gun, 125mm which no other MBT of PA had before it, almost at end of 1980's. It had to match IA T-72 in combat. 250 or 300 examples is not justice with this MBT. M1 was rejected because of gun, weight issues. PA held the license to produce T-85 but stopped.
View attachment 533924
View attachment 533925

The engine problems led to its downfall. This means it was not a clever acquisition although the engine problem was finally fixed and then the story comes to T-80 UD.

If the internal layout of Ukrainian T-80 and Russian T-80 are the same, then there are few thousand Russian T-80's stored, even a few hundred would suffice since Pakistan exports in hundreds as seen in the past. If the price is right without upgrades, PA can upgrade it to bring commonality between both Ukrainian and Russian T-80.

type 85 is something 30 years ago, now we are talking about VT4.

 

[Signalian]

type 85 is something 30 years ago, now we are talking about VT4.

do you have idea why im talking about T-85

 

[Gryphon]

If more IABG's and IMBG's are formed, yes the T-85 III would require to be shifted into those.

Bro, the fact is more IABG's and IMBG's have already been formed. After Operation Parakram, PA raised 2x Mech. Div. for Bahawalpur Corps & Karachi Corps but both these Corps still have an IABG & IMBG.

31 Corps - 10 IABG and 44 IMBG.

V Corps - 2 IABG (?) and 31 IMBG (?)

This wasn't possible unless armd. regiments using AK/AZ/Type 85-IIAP were harvested from Infantry Divisions. And those were replaced by newly raised armd. regiments using Type 59/69.

Notes:
(1) PA doesn't use Type 85-III, the variant in service is Type 85-IIAP.
(2) Refer Wikipedia for MBT numbers.

The story of T-80 UD and T-85 III is about making decisions almost in an emergency. It has not really worked out wonders in the longer run, although it has kept the MBT fleet afloat. IA went for T-72's and stuck with it, then went with T-90's and ordered thousands. China went onto modernization from T-59 to T-88 to T-90 to T-96 and then is at T-99. Most other countries are sticking to one or two types. PA has 6 Types for an Army with small Armoured Corps. 250 T-85 III, 320 T-80 UD, 400 AK, 600 AZ and the rest T-59 and T-69. This gives so many choices of expansion towards T-80 UD, towards AZ , towards AK and AK-I.

T-85 had problems with engine but it was chosen because of its main gun, 125mm which no other MBT of PA had before it, almost at end of 1980's. It had to match IA T-72 in combat. 250 or 300 examples is not justice with this MBT. M1 was rejected because of gun, weight issues. PA held the license to produce T-85 but stopped.
View attachment 533924
View attachment 533925

The engine problems led to its downfall. This means it was not a clever acquisition although the engine problem was finally fixed and then the story comes to T-80 UD.

If the internal layout of Ukrainian T-80 and Russian T-80 are the same, then there are few thousand Russian T-80's stored, even a few hundred would suffice since Pakistan exports in hundreds as seen in the past. If the price is right without upgrades, PA can upgrade it to bring commonality between both Ukrainian and Russian T-80.

Now that PA is left with four different types (AK/AZ/T-80UD/85-IIAP) besides Type 59/69, I think buying surplus T-80's (as you suggested) is the best step PA can take at the moment. It should include:

• Buying all surplus T-80UD's from Russia.
• Buying surplus T-80U's and replacing the turbine engine with 6TD-1 diesel engine.

An off-the-shelf platform like VT-4 would only complicate matters for PA. Even if Ukrainians deliver 20 tanks/yr, an Oplot-P with 1400hp 6TD-3 diesel engine is still more suitable as Al-Haider since the same engine would most likely end up with AK-2. This means commonality with T-80UD and AK-2.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

The thing that stood out during the vt4 trials was it's engine. So much so that PA is in talks with China for the engine as it might power AK 1.

 

[帅的一匹]

do you have idea why im talking about T-85

you mean they grow from same technology tree.

 

[Signalian]

Bro, the fact is more IABG's and IMBG's have already been formed. After Operation Parakram, PA raised 2x Mech. Div. for Bahawalpur Corps & Karachi Corps but both these Corps still have an IABG & IMBG.

31 Corps - 10 IABG and 44 IMBG.

V Corps - 2 IABG (?) and 31 IMBG (?)

This wasn't possible unless armd. regiments using AK/AZ/Type 85-IIAP were harvested from Infantry Divisions. And those were replaced by newly raised armd. regiments using Type 59/69.

Notes:
(1) PA doesn't use Type 85-III, the variant in service is Type 85-IIAP.
(2) Refer Wikipedia for MBT numbers.



Now that PA is left with four different types (AK/AZ/T-80UD/85-IIAP) besides Type 59/69, I think buying surplus T-80's (as you suggested) is the best step PA can take at the moment. It should include:

• Buying all surplus T-80UD's from Russia.
• Buying surplus T-80U's and replacing the turbine engine with 6TD-1 diesel engine.

An off-the-shelf platform like VT-4 would only complicate matters for PA. Even if Ukrainians deliver 20 tanks/yr, an Oplot-P with 1400hp 6TD-3 diesel engine is still more suitable as Al-Haider since the same engine would most likely end up with AK-2. This means commonality with T-80UD and AK-2.

Yar I am aware of the IABG/IMBG that you mentioned. I perceived that you were talking about new ones being formed. It's interesting to see that IMBG are commanded by Armor Corps Brig's, i was expecting a Brig who got commissioned in MIB.

Type-85 II AP, as you refer to it, has been upgraded a few times, if the designation is same, its fine by me. the engine as upgraded when the Chinese sorted out the engine issue and the engine upgraded variant is T-85 III. Anyways, im not fussy about the designation.

A very long time back, in T-80 thread I had a "duel" with Desert Fighter lol as i presented the option of Russian T-80 which he objected is different from Ukrainian T-80. My argument was based on the up-gradation process which PA MBT's go through and that could be applied to Russian T-80. Finally Dazzler intervened and the duel stopped.

I agree with your thoughts that another new exported platform complicates matters. Most units have their drivers trained on basic T-59, then AZ. The formations in south use modern MBT's. A unit will need to rotate over 45 years to get training on all MBT's, considering a unit rotates every 8 years.

 

[Gryphon]

A very long time back, in T-80 thread I had a "duel" with Desert Fighter lol as i presented the option of Russian T-80 which he objected is different from Ukrainian T-80. My argument was based on the up-gradation process which PA MBT's go through and that could be applied to Russian T-80. Finally Dazzler intervened and the duel stopped.

I agree with your thoughts that another new exported platform complicates matters. Most units have their drivers trained on basic T-59, then AZ. The formations in south use modern MBT's. A unit will need to rotate over 45 years to get training on all MBT's, considering a unit rotates every 8 years.

Besides commonality of engine and subsystems with AK-2 and T-80 respectively, inducting Oplot-P (with 6TD-3 engine) can also provide commonality in ammunition.


From: https://www.janes.com/article/84924/ukraine-highlights-expanding-opportunities-in-pakistan

UkrOboronProm said Pakistan wanted to "conduct tests" of various Ukrainian weapons and military equipment as part of its procurement processes.

The industry group said it also discussed with counterparts from Pakistan the "terms and conditions [to support] the start of joint Ukraine-Pakistan production of high-precision missiles of various classes".

UkrOboronProm said the two sides had "confirmed their readiness to start joint research and development work in the coming months". UkrOboronProm did not identify the weapon but in recent years the countries have been discussing collaboration on high-precision anti-tank missile systems developed by the Luch Design Bureau in Kiev.




As mentioned above, the ATGM type has not been disclosed but I suspect Pakistan wants local production of Kombat. Kombat can be fired from KBA-3 gun of T-80UD / Oplot-P, 2A46M-1 gun of Russian T-80's, as well as from the 125mm gun of AK-series. The FCS of these MBTs is compatible with Kombat.










@Dazzler
Ukraine is supplying 88 TO1-KO1 ER night sights to Pakistan for T-80UD's under a contract signed in 2017. Weren't all UD's equipped with night sights before?

 

[ziaulislam]

Pak needs tl go to team.who gives max tot especially in transmission and engines
Its time we start focusing on that aspect too

Its best time to milk ukrain as they are in bigger financing situation

Most of our problems are artificial and fixable in couple of years

 

[帅的一匹]

Pak needs tl go to team.who gives max tot especially in transmission and engines
Its time we start focusing on that aspect too

Its best time to milk ukrain as they are in bigger financing situation

Most of our problems are artificial and fixable in couple of years

Pakistan might have to induct hundreds oplot to achieve that goal. Ukraine ia in deep shit now, they cant produce tanks in volume for Pakistan.

 

[Signalian]

Besides commonality of engine and subsystems with AK-2 and T-80 respectively, inducting Oplot-P (with 6TD-3 engine) can also provide commonality in ammunition.


From: https://www.janes.com/article/84924/ukraine-highlights-expanding-opportunities-in-pakistan

UkrOboronProm said Pakistan wanted to "conduct tests" of various Ukrainian weapons and military equipment as part of its procurement processes.

The industry group said it also discussed with counterparts from Pakistan the "terms and conditions [to support] the start of joint Ukraine-Pakistan production of high-precision missiles of various classes".

UkrOboronProm said the two sides had "confirmed their readiness to start joint research and development work in the coming months". UkrOboronProm did not identify the weapon but in recent years the countries have been discussing collaboration on high-precision anti-tank missile systems developed by the Luch Design Bureau in Kiev.




As mentioned above, the ATGM type has not been disclosed but I suspect Pakistan wants local production of Kombat. Kombat can be fired from KBA-3 gun of T-80UD / Oplot-P, 2A46M-1 gun of Russian T-80's, as well as from the 125mm gun of AK-series. The FCS of these MBTs is compatible with Kombat.










@Dazzler
Ukraine is supplying 88 TO1-KO1 ER night sights to Pakistan for T-80UD's under a contract signed in 2017. Weren't all UD's equipped with night sights before?

I reckon 4 x ATGM's are carried per MBT, mainly used for long distance engagement 4km+. Another use would be to target gunships. Atleast Kombat is not wire guided but would require lasing from the source till the missile hits the target.

PA could have ordered one example of T-80 from Russia,and handed it over to HIT to find out if necessary modifications could make it compatible with T-80 UD. If deemed suitable, PA could get T-80 from Russia in batches of 50 every couple of years, steadily raising numbers without alarming India. A straight up order of 300 could have raised concerns east and west, so 50 every 2 years would have been fine. Just like AK-1 is being inducted in small numbers of 21, PA could have equipped two regiments with the first 50 T-80's. After induction of 150 T-80's, every year induct 50 more and after 3 more years the total reaches 300. This way AK-1 and T-80 would have replaced all of T-59's and T-69's. No new type of MBT would have been added in PA inventory. When AK-II induction would have started, either AZ would be the first to go followed by T-85. If possible, bring AK configuration up to AK-1 standard and finally only 3 types of MBT would have remained; AK-1,AK-II and T-80. If any other country using T-80 decides to retire it, then get surplus T-80 from them while keeping up the production of AK-II side by side. i also think that AK, AK-1 production should reach 800-1000.

 

[Gryphon]

PA could have ordered one example of T-80 from Russia,and handed it over to HIT to find out if necessary modifications could make it compatible with T-80 UD. If deemed suitable, PA could get T-80 from Russia in batches of 50 every couple of years, steadily raising numbers without alarming India. A straight up order of 300 could have raised concerns east and west, so 50 every 2 years would have been fine. Just like AK-1 is being inducted in small numbers of 21, PA could have equipped two regiments with the first 50 T-80's. After induction of 150 T-80's, every year induct 50 more and after 3 more years the total reaches 300. This way AK-1 and T-80 would have replaced all of T-59's and T-69's. No new type of MBT would have been added in PA inventory. When AK-II induction would have started, either AZ would be the first to go followed by T-85. If possible, bring AK configuration up to AK-1 standard and finally only 3 types of MBT would have remained; AK-1,AK-II and T-80. If any other country using T-80 decides to retire it, then get surplus T-80 from them while keeping up the production of AK-II side by side. i also think that AK, AK-1 production should reach 800-1000.

The T-80UD's used by PA are in two configurations: Russian (with 2A46M-1 gun) and Ukrainian (with KBA-3). If PA manages to acquire surplus T-80UD's from either Ukraine or Russia or both, there is no need to evaluate since both configurations are already in PA service.
IMO, the T-80UD fleet should be increased to at least 600.

Now, if enough surplus UD's aren't available, and PA takes any Russian variant with turbine engine, it will be costly to have these converted to diesel.

Army has committed to a total of 610 AK/AK-1, of which 324 AK and 48 AK-1 have been produced so far.

Regarding Type 69-IIMP, I would like to mention that the ARV based on this platform, i.e., W653 was upgraded to W653A standard to support heavier tanks and 132 Type 69-IIMP were converted to 100mm (besides other modifications like slat armour) for FC, which implies HIT will continue R/M & rebuild of these longer than Type 59.

Note that Type 69-IIMP uses 50% components from Type 59.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

Al zarrar program has been discontinued