Pakistan Army acquiring 100 Battle Tanks

[帅的一匹]

right decision going for Vt4.

 

[Zulfiqar]

• Five AK-1/2 regiments are in the procurement pipeline. This is in addition to the first AK-1 regiment raised previously.

• There exists a requirement for six regiments of an off-the-shelf MBT platform.

• T-80UD is not being upgraded to Oplot-M standard. The agreements signed are concerned with rebuild & maintenance of these tanks.

Which tanks/formations are expected to be replaced by the off-the-shelf MBTs?



Similarly which tanks/formations are expected to be replaced by the AK-1/2s?

 

[Zulfiqar]

i agree Pakistan should focus on five critical areas in near future.

1) 8 to 10 dedicated attack helicopters squadrons/regiments
2) 4 Wasp Class Marines amphibious assault with Embedded VSTOL
3) Long range double engine truck multirole fighter
4) infantry conversion to mech divisions
5) DDGs

We can see what Assault helis can do to the armor on ground...

At least 60 new choppers are a bare minimum requirement if we need to turn the tide of an armour formation quickly.

If we assume that 75 percent attrition of enemy armour rgt is required to make it ineffective ( i.e destruction of 44 out of 59 tanks) then 45 choppers (considering an availability rate of 75 percent) with a payload of 8 ATGMs at 75 percent hit rate and a chopper attrition rate of around 50 percent (very conservative estimate) after each sortie will result in destruction of around 528 tanks after 6 sorties (rounded). This is equivalent of wiping out 12 full armour regiments or a full division plus element (more if the regiments are mixed with mech infantry battallions).

Apart from choppers we need greater concentration of artillery preferably with SADARM type ammo.

 

[HariPrasad]

KIndly input your comments to confirm following news by Times of Islamabad,
https://timesofislamabad.com/13-Jan...state-of-the-art-main-battle-tanks-from-china

Pakistan Army to acquire 100 state of the art Main Battle Tanks and 62 new JF-17 jets . from China
13 Jan, 2019
ISLAMABAD - With the intention of achieving a decisive edge against India, the Pakistan Army has constantly been engaged in strengthening its defense preparedness. Towards this, the Pakistan Air Force will add 62 new JF-17 jets in the next three years against India's 36 Rafale fighter jets.
To overcome its shortage of tanks in the Pakistan Army Armoured Corps, the country also intends to add 600 new MBTs over the next few months. It is already procuring about 100 Chinese VT4 – a third generation MBT with an engine of 1200 horsepower and speed of 70 kilometers per hour.
"Pakistan wants such a tank in which there is a computerized fire control system and would be able to hit targets within a range of 3 to 4 kilometers.
Second news is,
""
China to sell 48 high-end military drones to Pakistan
PTI|-Updated: Oct 10, 2018, 10.26 AM IST-
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/66129500.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Congrats.

 

[Gryphon]

In the past, PA raised Mech. Divisions as an immediate counter to IA RAPID's; PA IABG's, IMBG's and anti-tank bde's were expected to counter adjacent enemy units of similar size/strength.

It was recently reported IA was drafting a new doctrine which calls for forming 8-10 IBG's with strength of each new formation equivalent to 2x IABG's.

IMO, IA will probably double the strength of each IABG and re-designate them as IBG's, which clearly increases their chance of overcoming defending PA IABG's.

So expect this to be followed by a re-organization in PA, which may include:

• Buying new tanks (AK-2 and off-the-shelf platform), raising new armd regiments, increasing size of IABG's and IMBG's. Sufficient APC qty acquired from US, Italy & Jordan to support additional armd regiments.

• Inducting 1x anti-tank battalion (with ATGM mounted on APC/IFV) in every IABG and IMBG.

• Increasing anti-tank bde strength by adding more battalions and better armaments.

In recent years, it has been observed PA raised new armd regiments while retaining 105mm gun equipped older tanks in existing regiments for Inf. div. support. After XI Corps, X Corps has highest no. of infantry units serving in FATA. Armd regiments with 105mm gun equipped tanks have served well.

 

[HAIDER]

Lots of boneyard with T72 .. buy dirt cheap and fix it. From Russia to Ukraine ..

 

[Chimgathar]

Lots of boneyard with T72 .. buy dirt cheap and fix it. From Russia to Ukraine ..

No not old rusty scrap tanks please, we need current gen dependable new hardware.

 

[Gryphon]

No not old rusty scrap tanks please, we need current gen dependable new hardware.

The cost of buying these old T-72's, and getting them back to serviceable condition + establishing R/M and rebuild facilities + training will probably be >= what it takes to upgrade an equal no. of Type 59's into Al-Zarrar.

And you will get a tank which is still tier 2 in your armour inventory. It is not like procuring second hand M113 type APCs or M109 SPH variants, which were already in service and facilities already established. And some spares produced locally.

Pathetic AK-1 production rate has made induction of an off-the-shelf platform (Al-Haider) inevitable. Al-Haider should be PA's MBT of the future and Army needs to commit to buying over 500 examples in 10 years.

 

[CHI RULES]

There will be no urban warfare on the western front!
Even if there were few encounters I doubt IA will reach Lahore or PA will reach Amritsar . Concentrated densely populated urban Zones will be unlikely to be penetrated by both sides . In such a case the T-90MS of IA will be a considerable opposition to Pakistani tanks this is the main reason why PA is trying to field VT-4 .

The war if occurs between Indo Pak shall be limited and for few days at most,both countries may face fuel shortages as well as other issues. If any conflict spreads then it may include Missiles. The MBTs role shall be for few days. As Pak has defensive doctrine and may penetrate at limited scale through Rjhistan area meanwhile IA if tries to push through MBTs from previous MBTs front i.e Chawinda may face direct hits by Nasr tactical missiles. So you are quite right that no urban warfare on large scale expected. Moreover Pak Alzarrar is not so far behind the modern MBTs perhaps the front line units MBTs should be upgraded at limited level with improved protections i.e effective APS along with further improvements in ERA/NERA and camouflage tactics which are main features of new generation MBTs. We cannot go tow to tow with India. Even if Pak gets 100-300 VT4s in short run in each case project may take 3-4 Years. The short run requirements can be met by improving quality of existing MBTs.

 

[Signalian]

Which tanks/formations are expected to be replaced by the off-the-shelf MBTs?



Similarly which tanks/formations are expected to be replaced by the AK-1/2s?

Basically T-59's and it can also happen that Type-85 formations are transferred to infantry formations while AK series takes over.

At least 60 new choppers are a bare minimum requirement if we need to turn the tide of an armour formation quickly.

If we assume that 75 percent attrition of enemy armour rgt is required to make it ineffective ( i.e destruction of 44 out of 59 tanks) then 45 choppers (considering an availability rate of 75 percent) with a payload of 8 ATGMs at 75 percent hit rate and a chopper attrition rate of around 50 percent (very conservative estimate) after each sortie will result in destruction of around 528 tanks after 6 sorties (rounded). This is equivalent of wiping out 12 full armour regiments or a full division plus element (more if the regiments are mixed with mech infantry battallions).

Apart from choppers we need greater concentration of artillery preferably with SADARM type ammo.

A formation becomes ineffective after 33% losses, but mostly stay in combat till 50% losses.

Lots of boneyard with T72 .. buy dirt cheap and fix it. From Russia to Ukraine ..

Apart from cost issues, these cold war depot tanks will bring a new type of MBT in PA service which is not recommended. Either get surplus hulls of Type-90/96 from China and upgrade them or ask Ukraine for surplus T-80's.

 

[Signalian]

In the past, PA raised Mech. Divisions as an immediate counter to IA RAPID's; PA IABG's, IMBG's and anti-tank bde's were expected to counter adjacent enemy units of similar size/strength.

It was recently reported IA was drafting a new doctrine which calls for forming 8-10 IBG's with strength of each new formation equivalent to 2x IABG's.

IMO, IA will probably double the strength of each IABG and re-designate them as IBG's, which clearly increases their chance of overcoming defending PA IABG's.

So expect this to be followed by a re-organization in PA, which may include:

• Buying new tanks (AK-2 and off-the-shelf platform), raising new armd regiments, increasing size of IABG's and IMBG's. Sufficient APC qty acquired from US, Italy & Jordan to support additional armd regiments.

• Inducting 1x anti-tank battalion (with ATGM mounted on APC/IFV) in every IABG and IMBG.

• Increasing anti-tank bde strength by adding more battalions and better armaments.

In recent years, it has been observed PA raised new armd regiments while retaining 105mm gun equipped older tanks in existing regiments for Inf. div. support. After XI Corps, X Corps has highest no. of infantry units serving in FATA. Armd regiments with 105mm gun equipped tanks have served well.

An Adhoc AT Bde in every premier formation will give excellent defensive posture to that formation. So far the AT Bde's are independent from Div HQ structure, even the AT battalions in Div's are independent of Bde HQ's. Their mobility and fire power is unmatched. While a mechanised Battalion is composed of 50 APC's with HMG's, the AT battalions have 24 ATGM carriers and 24 HMG carriers, with lesser strength in personnel, almost half of infantry or mechanised infantry battalions. The Bde structure has 2 AT battalions.

Sometimes it seemed that the RR jeeps were mobile Tanks without armor, they had the firepower of M-40 106mm gun and the mobility on road and off road through CJ-series jeep chassis. They were used in defensive positions but could also be used in offensives. Today's AT battalions having ATGM's are mostly defensive in nature, perfect for ambushing while the HMG carriers have recon element. After induction of T-129's into PAA, the AH-1F should be handed over to strike formations to bolster their AT capability. Gunships give a much needed offensive capability to their parent formation. US Armored formations have gunships units attached to them. An engineer battalion attached with AT brigade could be very effective too; placing mines, creating obstacles, preparing traps.

An independent AT Bde could have one tracked and one wheeled ATGM Battalion, an Engineer Battalion, furthermore independent Armored Recce Squadron. That will be 48 ATGM launchers for AT role, 48 HMG's against infantry and 15 MBT's that could be switched to any role. The Engineer Battalion can also fight as an infantry battalion if required, but their specialist role along with machinery, tools and weapons is very crucial. The NG formations like Janbaz and Mujahid battalions are exclusively trained in defensive roles, so one NG battalion attached to Bde could fill in the infantry support role.
AT Bde under Armor/Mechanised Div could get technical support of Engineers from the Assault Engineer battalion, while it wouldn't require dedicated Armored regiment or infantry Battalion. Other Bde's of Div could compliment it since GOC will use the AT Bde at his own discretion, executing Ops with other units of his Div. The AT formation gets relegated status since the Div will be required to conduct offensive maneuvers inside enemy territory.

Para troopers working in conjunction with Armored formations should be inculcated. Para troop formations landing at areas ahead of armored formations, capturing vital points and securing roads and bridges. Thus clearing the way for armored formations. Also engaging enemy to to upset their plans, ensuring the reserves(Div and Corps) are brought up in fight quickly.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Basically T-59's and it can also happen that Type-85 formations are transferred to infantry formations while AK series takes over.


A formation becomes ineffective after 33% losses, but mostly stay in combat till 50% losses.


Apart from cost issues, these cold war depot tanks will bring a new type of MBT in PA service which is not recommended. Either get surplus hulls of Type-90/96 from China and upgrade them or ask Ukraine for surplus T-80's.

I find T 59s quite beautiful. However, it is important that we get them replacement asap considering enemy armour strength.

If we use the 50 percent attrition rate instead of 75 percent then the choppers are even more effective.

An Adhoc AT Bde in every premier formation will give excellent defensive posture to that formation. So far the AT Bde's are independent from Div HQ structure, even the AT battalions in Div's are independent of Bde HQ's. Their mobility and fire power is unmatched. While a mechanised Battalion is composed of 50 APC's with HMG's, the AT battalions have 24 ATGM carriers and 24 HMG carriers, with lesser strength in personnel, almost half of infantry or mechanised infantry battalions. The Bde structure has 2 AT battalions.

Sometimes it seemed that the RR jeeps were mobile Tanks without armor, they had the firepower of M-40 106mm gun and the mobility on road and off road through CJ-series jeep chassis. They were used in defensive positions but could also be used in offensives. Today's AT battalions having ATGM's are mostly defensive in nature, perfect for ambushing while the HMG carriers have recon element. After induction of T-129's into PAA, the AH-1F should be handed over to strike formations to bolster their AT capability. Gunships give a much needed offensive capability to their parent formation. US Armored formations have gunships units attached to them. An engineer battalion attached with AT brigade could be very effective too; placing mines, creating obstacles, preparing traps.

An independent AT Bde could have one tracked and one wheeled ATGM Battalion, an Engineer Battalion, furthermore independent Armored Recce Squadron. That will be 48 ATGM launchers for AT role, 48 HMG's against infantry and 15 MBT's that could be switched to any role. The Engineer Battalion can also fight as an infantry battalion if required, but their specialist role along with machinery, tools and weapons is very crucial. The NG formations like Janbaz and Mujahid battalions are exclusively trained in defensive roles, so one NG battalion attached to Bde could fill in the infantry support role.
AT Bde under Armor/Mechanised Div could get technical support of Engineers from the Assault Engineer battalion, while it wouldn't require dedicated Armored regiment or infantry Battalion. Other Bde's of Div could compliment it since GOC will use the AT Bde at his own discretion, executing Ops with other units of his Div. The AT formation gets relegated status since the Div will be required to conduct offensive maneuvers inside enemy territory.

Para troopers working in conjunction with Armored formations should be inculcated. Para troop formations landing at areas ahead of armored formations, capturing vital points and securing roads and bridges. Thus clearing the way for armored formations. Also engaging enemy to to upset their plans, ensuring the reserves(Div and Corps) are brought up in fight quickly.

BTW LCB idea is not new ( not talking about paratroopers as that will be a separate thing)

In 80's and 90's the army thought about using LCB's in conjunction with sappers for securing/destroying key bridges and pathways (my father was from Engr Corps).

They were also to be used in combination to pave way for the strike formations.

I don't know about present day strategy but I believe the LCBs that have been raised will have the above goals as one of their main tasks.

Mobility is the key as we have seen in the gulf wars and 1973 war.

We need to add additional AT capability, especially with NLOS capability for better standoff protection (considering the armor is thin on such vehicles). Something similar to spike NLOS or the Chinese equivalent.

 

[帅的一匹]

Why so many types? Maybe just two with one in 50-60 ton and one less than 50 ton will be good enough and buy more of those tanks.

VT-4 is around 55 ton and T-80 is around <50 ton? Forget the others means more tanks and easier service.

I thought someone I think it was Dazzler said in past that Pakistan Army won't or shouldn't get VT-4 because it is a bad tank. Is VT-4 actually already picked?

VT 4 is a bad tank, i simply dont believe it.

China can fullfill the order within 3years.

 

[serenity]

VT 4 is a bad tank, i simply dont believe it.

China can fullfill the order within 3years.

No I said that because I suspect the people who said in past that VT-4 is bad in certain ways, really don't know and they are making things up. If it is truly bad, Thailand would not have made three separate orders. At first they just want to try it since T-84 delivery is delayed. Then they were happy and made second order and now third order.

If Pakistan also buy VT-4, surely it cannot be that bad in hot desert. The main complaint was the engine and transmission reliability. Not performance. Reliability. But I know lot's of Chinese sources have years ago said those old reliability problems were fixed but now tanks are more expensive and takes more production time and procedures. We will see what Pakistan Army does with new tank orders.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Some great posts and great material to read in above few posts.....
My few words on this topic, We need tanks and we also need them urgently , AK production and R&D is pathetic if we look at the time frame , its over 20 years now...…
Just suppose VT-4 is not advance and upto standers , but VT-4 is much beater then all the tanks we have , VT-4 matches AK-I and beat all older tanks of PA , 500 of them can bring required firepower to PA ,,,,,,,
And on "Upto Stander" part ,,,,, why not we build over AK-II , what is stopping us ? If AK-II is not what our Army telling us then why not look at other options ?
And on Recent Indain Army upgradation ,,,, I said this many time on this forum , We have to upgrade our Gujranwala and Lahore Corps to Mechanised Corps , with tanks and Ifvs + Afvs …. we also need to add extra Anti tank unties with latest IFVs , AFVs equipped with latest fire and forget Anti Tank Missiles .
We have to take load off from our to strike crops ,.,.,.,.