Pakistan and India...Why can't we be friends?

[hanmya]

I do not agree with this senario at current situation. Being friends or working together does not necessarily bring down poverty or injustice. And the Idea of Progressive nations, i am completly against the idelogy of Progressiveness. Progressive is just a fancy word for liberalism, where the gov't is envolved in industries to personal lives.

These words are mutually exclusive. Liberalism doesnt mean govt controlling ur lives.
That said we just saw what deregulation does to world financial order and how Mr Reddy the former RBI governor regulated the Indian financial markets avoiding a thorough meltdown, though ripples of global meltdown will be felt.

just my 2 cents - liberalism doesnt mean communism or socialism or fascism or anarchy!!

 

[jeypore]

These words are mutually exclusive. Liberalism doesnt mean govt controlling ur lives.
That said we just saw what deregulation does to world financial order and how Mr Reddy the former RBI governor regulated the Indian financial markets avoiding a thorough meltdown, though ripples of global meltdown will be felt.

just my 2 cents - liberalism doesnt mean communism or socialism or fascism or anarchy!!

Maybe, you do not think they are mutually exlusive, but I certainly do. Social programs are good, but up to certain point. I am one of those that does consider liberalism as equal as socialism. There are numerous examples of this, but this is not the thread for such arguments.

One of the clear examples of why India and Pakistan cannot be friends. Just the perception of Pakistanies distrusting the democractic systems and believing in autocratic system that solves all the alling problems of the country, is in one form part of liberalism, maybe far left liberalism, but it is one great example.

 

[Vinod2070]

IN the meant time, from the Pakistani perspective, the continued refusal to even consider J&K disputed, despite the obvious staring us in the face, is a continual reminder of a lack of sincerity from India's part.

There have been various reports that there has been a good progress on the J&K issue, that a roadmap has been finalized, that the back channel process has been making good progress etc. Not all of it may be in public domain but there has been sustained dialog over the last so many years. What else is expected? This issue is not a quickie, we all know that.

Now that a framework has been agreed to a large extent: no change in borders, taking care of the minimum concerns of all parties, no maximalist positions of trying to wrest territory under the other country's control etc., we are moving closer to the solution all the time.

The issue no longer evokes the same emotions in the two countries, despite attempts by some parties at times.

I think it has been realized that the relations should not be held hostage to a single issue. Is that still not the case?

I disagree with the 'closet bomber' argument, Farrukh Saleem is indulging in some gratuitous self flagellation here. And you dissemble when you suggest that the likes of AQ and the Taliban are 'so popular' in Pakistan.

Most opinion polls show that support to be quite low, and where it does exist, it is not because people support their tactics, but because they do not believe that they engage in the crimes attributed to them and support their political message of fighting 'occupation and American injustice'. This argument is borne out by the results from several polls carried out by reputable Western organizations in Pakistan. The latest one being:

Pakistanis Support Tougher Stance on Terrorism

Therefore I woudl humbly argue that Farrukh Saleem does not know what he is talking about on this issue, since the evidence is so diametrically opposed to his conclusions, though his self-flagellation probably appeals to some already looking to castigate Pakistan.

My strongest argument against this alleged 'brainwashing' remains the actual opinions and attitudes of Pakistanis, that are by far moderate and in favor of peace, economic development, engagement - not war and destruction.

You can scream about the curriculum all you want, but you cannot make a case for your argument when the opinions and attitudes of Pakistanis remain largely moderate.

Two quick points:

I don't think self-critique equals self-flagellation. Dr. Farrukh Saleem may be indulging in the former, not the latter. The same kind of articles are also written by another excellent Pakistani writer Irfan Hussain. I can discern nothing but concern for Pakistan in both their articles and disagreement with the way things are going. Not self flagellation or contempt for their country!

Again, I may not quite agree with your conclusions about the impact of the curriculum on the generations coming up but even if we go by your logic, it only points to the fact that the intentions of the ruling establishment in trying to brainwash the generations is not working too well, not for the want of trying though!

It does not take away from the fact that the curriculum itself has been designed for the objectives already discussed. You are questioning the efficacy of the curriculum and if I understand correctly even agree with some of the objectives.

The point is it has caused more harm to Pakistan than India. That is what some respected journalists seem to think in Pakistan too.

They say "Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel". It is not really good to suppress any dissenting voice as self flagellation or even possibly treachery.

 

[Rafael]

To all my indian friends, I want you to know that the word "jihad" does not neccasarily means to fight...this word has as many as 3 meanings..

I hope the following article would give you a fair idea about jihad and will help to understand the article by Farrukh Saleem's article.


The conventional interpretation of "Jihad":
According to Beliefnet, 2 Al-Hajj Talib 'Abdur-Rashid, imam of the Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood in Harlem, NY, defines three levels of jihad -- personal, verbal and physical. Considering each in turn:

Personal Jihad: This is the most important form. This type of jihad, called the Jihadun-Nafs, is the intimate struggle to purify one's soul of evil influences -- both subtle and overt. It is the struggle to cleanse one's spirit of sin. In a brochure, the Institute of Islamic Information & Education describes several different contexts in which The Qur'an (the Islamic Holy Book) and the Hadith (the collected sayings of Muhammad) use the word "jihad" to refer to personal struggles: Putting "Allah ahead of our loved ones, our wealth, our worldly ambitions and our own lives."
Resisting pressure of parents, peers and society; strive against "the rejecters of faith..." (Quran 25:52)
"...strive and struggle to live as true Muslims..."
"Striving for righteous deeds."
Spreading the message of Islam. "The (true) believers are only those who believe in Allah and his messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their selves for the cause of Allah. Such are the truthful." (Quran, 49:15)

Verbal Jihad: To strive for justice through words and non-violent actions. Muhammad encouraged Muslims to demand justice in the name of Allah. When asked: "'What kind of jihad is better?' Muhammad replied, 'A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler!'" 3 According to the Institute of Islamic Information and Education: "The life of the Prophet Muhammad was full of striving to gain the freedom to inform and convey the message of Islam. During his stay in Makkah [Mecca] he used non-violent methods and after the establishment of his government in Madinah [Medina], by the permission of Allah, he used armed struggle against his enemies whenever he found it inevitable." 1
Physical Jihad: This relates to the use of physical force in defense of Muslims against oppression and transgression by the enemies of Allah, Islam and Muslims. Allah commands that Muslims lead peaceful lives and not transgress against anyone. If they are persecuted and oppressed, the Qur'an recommends that they migrate to a more peaceful and tolerant land: "Lo! Those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape persecution) and strive (Jahadu) in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy..." (Quran, 2:218). If relocation is not possible, then Allah also requires Muslims to defend themselves against oppression by "fighting against those who fight against us." 2 The Qur'an states: "To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to defend themselves], because they are wronged - and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory." (22:39) The defensive nature of physical jihad (or "jihad with the hand") is frequently lost among many, Muslims, Christians, secularists and others.

In her book "Muhammed," author Karen Armstrong writes: "Fighting and warfare might sometimes be necessary, but it was only a minor part of the whole jihad or struggle. A well-known tradition (hadith) has Muhammad say on returning from a battle, ' We return from the little jihad to the greater jihad,' the more difficult and crucial effort to conquer the forces of evil in oneself and and in one's own society in all the details of daily life." 4

 

[Rafael]

To all my indian friends, I want you to know that the word "jihad" does not neccasarily means to fight...this word has as many as 3 meanings..

I hope the following article would give you a fair idea about jihad and will help to understand the article by Farrukh Saleem's article.


The conventional interpretation of "Jihad":

According to Beliefnet, 2 Al-Hajj Talib 'Abdur-Rashid, imam of the Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood in Harlem, NY, defines three levels of jihad -- personal, verbal and physical. Considering each in turn:

Personal Jihad: This is the most important form. This type of jihad, called the Jihadun-Nafs, is the intimate struggle to purify one's soul of evil influences -- both subtle and overt. It is the struggle to cleanse one's spirit of sin. In a brochure, the Institute of Islamic Information & Education describes several different contexts in which The Qur'an (the Islamic Holy Book) and the Hadith (the collected sayings of Muhammad) use the word "jihad" to refer to personal struggles: Putting "Allah ahead of our loved ones, our wealth, our worldly ambitions and our own lives."
Resisting pressure of parents, peers and society; strive against "the rejecters of faith..." (Quran 25:52)
"...strive and struggle to live as true Muslims..."
"Striving for righteous deeds."
Spreading the message of Islam. "The (true) believers are only those who believe in Allah and his messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their selves for the cause of Allah. Such are the truthful." (Quran, 49:15)


Verbal Jihad: To strive for justice through words and non-violent actions. Muhammad encouraged Muslims to demand justice in the name of Allah. When asked: "'What kind of jihad is better?' Muhammad replied, 'A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler!'" 3 According to the Institute of Islamic Information and Education: "The life of the Prophet Muhammad was full of striving to gain the freedom to inform and convey the message of Islam. During his stay in Makkah [Mecca] he used non-violent methods and after the establishment of his government in Madinah [Medina], by the permission of Allah, he used armed struggle against his enemies whenever he found it inevitable." 1


Physical Jihad: This relates to the use of physical force in defense of Muslims against oppression and transgression by the enemies of Allah, Islam and Muslims. Allah commands that Muslims lead peaceful lives and not transgress against anyone. If they are persecuted and oppressed, the Qur'an recommends that they migrate to a more peaceful and tolerant land: "Lo! Those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape persecution) and strive (Jahadu) in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy..." (Quran, 2:218). If relocation is not possible, then Allah also requires Muslims to defend themselves against oppression by "fighting against those who fight against us." 2 The Qur'an states: "To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to defend themselves], because they are wronged - and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory." (22:39) The defensive nature of physical jihad (or "jihad with the hand") is frequently lost among many, Muslims, Christians, secularists and others.



In her book "Muhammed," author Karen Armstrong writes: "Fighting and warfare might sometimes be necessary, but it was only a minor part of the whole jihad or struggle. A well-known tradition (hadith) has Muhammad say on returning from a battle, ' We return from the little jihad to the greater jihad,' the more difficult and crucial effort to conquer the forces of evil in oneself and and in one's own society in all the details of daily life." 4


"MODS Please delete my previous post"

 

[rubyjackass]

I think people here understand what jihad is...
I had no feeling that jihad is physical...
struggle need not be violent...

Do you know that Code Division Multiple Access is not the CDMA(which is infact CDMAOne, a technology built on original CDMA method) that telephone service providers talk of? CDMAOne stole the trade name of CDMA due to its popularity and reach.
Same with jihad... when people say jihad today, they are just saying the 'extremist jihad'. They just stole the name. Thats it.
I should have used a better analogy but... :O

 

[Moorkh]

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I just have one thing to say if Pakistan and India work together as friend we can be the most powerful nations on earth with that we can bring the poverty and injustice low and can move toward progressive nations and we can be most dominant nations on earth

if anybody agree or disagree with me plez share you views

i completely disagree

both the countries hate each other too much to work together.

Also there is no development in India is being blocked because of the mistrust towards Pakistan, the only only counter example being the Oil Pipeline from Iran.

 

[Kill-The-Enemy]

We hindus (although iam not) can be good friends with muslims only when they stop treat all non muslims like "kaafirs" and stop dreaming of "Expansion" i know muslims are very emotional to their religion but starting a violent jihad on small matters makes them bad in the eyes of world....

India Pakistan can only be friends if they both will have respect for each other rather than eyeing each others territory....

 

[funtoosh]

can good (us) and bad (them) be friends?

 

[Kill-The-Enemy]

can good (us) and bad (them) be friends?

Here in India the same goes for you:
can good(us) and bad(you guys) be friends??

We need to end this.... those Britishers were the culprit we should not forget it

 

[Aamna14]

We hindus (although iam not) can be good friends with muslims only when they stop treat all non muslims like "kaafirs" and stop dreaming of "Expansion" i know muslims are very emotional to their religion but starting a violent jihad on small matters makes them bad in the eyes of world....

India Pakistan can only be friends if they both will have respect for each other rather than eyeing each others territory....

Very easy to point fingers at others as much as i agree with your mutual respect point i disagree that all Muslims treat non Muslims badly and i always wonder why is the word kaafir taken as an offence some might try to justify by saying that its used in a derogatory way but that doesn't change the meaning of the word or probably people get this idea because when Muslims call each other kaafir they get offended but thats because they are emotional about their religion and don't like to be branded as those who are not following it.

 

[Kill-The-Enemy]

Very easy to point fingers at others as much as i agree with your mutual respect point i disagree that all Muslims treat non Muslims badly and i always wonder why is the word kaafir taken as an offence some might try to justify by saying that its used in a derogatory way but that doesn't change the meaning of the word or probably people get this idea because when Muslims call each other kaafir they get offended but thats because they are emotional about their religion and don't like to be branded as those who are not following it.

Here in India, their are muslims 2 of them even are my good friend....I really don't know what is wrong with Pakistani muslims that they hate hindus so much......i would be honest with you I've no problems with islam and all the things i told you for "kaafir" "expansion" "jihad" i read on internet..... WEST hates both Islam and Hindus that i can assure you..

 

[Aamna14]

Here in India, their are muslims 2 of them even are my good friend....I really don't know what is wrong with Pakistani muslims that they hate hindus so much......i would be honest with you I've no problems with islam and all the things i told you for "kaafir" "expansion" "jihad" i read on internet..... WEST hates both Islam and Hindus that i can assure you..

I haven't seen people who hate hindus the way you claim maybe you get this idea from the internet but social attitudes can't be judged through such mediums alone. I'll tell you one thing neither does the internet nor do most non Muslims who utter the words "kaafir" and "Jihaad" know even the meaning of the words they use to spew their biased opinions. I am a Muslim and i don't hate Hindus and nor do many Muslims in Pakistan as it is perceived.

 

[Biplab Bijay]

india didnt even want pakistan to exist and wanted [and still does] to destabilize and destroy it
thats y india and pak cant be friends

pakistan didnt even want india to exist and wanted [and still does] to destabilize and destroy it
thats y india and pak cant be friends

 

[Kill-The-Enemy]

I haven't seen people who hate hindus the way you claim maybe you get this idea from the internet but social attitudes can't be judged through such mediums alone. I'll tell you one thing neither does the internet nor do most non Muslims who utter the words "kaafir" and "Jihaad" know even the meaning of the words they use to spew their biased opinions. I am a Muslim and i don't hate Hindus and nor do many Muslims in Pakistan as it is perceived.

We've so much in common, we guys get along really well.......what would have happened if their was no separation.
I really think India allying with Pakistan can beat the shit out of any country out there