Pakistan and India...Why can't we be friends?

[rubyjackass]

U represent those double standards urself.

Then what about terrorist purohit who did samjhauta and what about Bal thakerey who is said to have been involved in it. It was being speculated if Bal thakerey had planned samjhauta. He has on several occassions called for the elimination of pakistan and has called to destroy Pakistan and even called for hindus to form suicide squads (check google).

There was no evidence of Thackerey's involvement. Wrong info...
As for the calls, do I need to say anything? Happens on both sides. Even a common may say that in frustation. Anyway there is enough motivation or provocation for Hindus(in general) to do such things. Any motivation would require creation of a feeling of being subjugated. I think(and you agree) Hindus feel secure about their religion(except for christian conversions in rural areas which is the most dominant feeling cashed by extremists, but still not enough, I don't see it coming).

There is minor difference in terms of culture and behavior but only minor and that based on religion. Religion is loose and not everyone follows. Eg many join ya guys f4 a drink n all.... i know how it goes... ya in cultural terms and all there is basically no difference but i think u r again trying to come to the same old place that there was no basis to divide india and pakistan like most indians try to say...

Exactly the problem with Indians...and the point of utmost sensitivity for Pakistanis.

You see your treatment of minorities has proved to us that a major bias does exist and 1993 babri massacre, 2003 Gujrat genocide, 84 sikh massacre, daily violence on religious basis, hindu terrorists given free hand, kashmir all point to the fact that we made the right choice. Our family actually shifted to Pakistan quite late.. We tried our best to remain but hindu terrorists khuli choot and their bias and discrimination while the secularists did nothing led to the break up of india.

I must say you are nothing special, all that dominated the minds of people then were sentiments. There were worse fallouts on both sides.

However what i want to make sure is that our history books dont focus on difference between hindu and muslim and promote harmony but promote the awful and horrible violence that was and still is perpetuated on the minorities of India and that should be the basis and the real reason for the creation of Pakistan. Hindu and Muslim can always live together.

When I studied history in school, I remember that there was never any serious mention of modern Paksitan(after partition) let alone a biased view. But frankly when I grew up as a kid with all friends, I really did not see much of a reason for partition. I saw Muslim friends around and wondered, after learning about democracy, secularism and tolerance stuff,why there should have been a partition particularly one based on a religion. But now I have the complete picture.

Even Jinnah was extremely secular and is known as the ambassador of hindu muslim unity.

I had known about this. But please give links to more details on this. Prefer Pakistani sources.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Did you not read what I said - Badhappan aka Benovelence

Visa Denied: Javed Akhtar - A Dangerous Indian?

Don't care whatever language you guise your hate in - Indian artists tour Pakistan as well, as pointed out, and either country reserves the right to not allow performances.

I see though that your sanctimonious Bullsh*t about 'Indian benevolence' not being reciprocated by Pakistan is just that, arrogant lying Bullsh*t.

Pakistani artistes should be allowed in India, says Bollywood

I think you are wrong....as long as Pakistan does not succeed in getting 93001 Indian soldiers to surrender in War, we are not going to go anywhere.

Since this is never ever going to happen, we can never become friends

Occasions may rise when an Indian may have to interact with a Pakistani and as an Indian he/she will be cordial towards a Pakistani, but do not mistake our cordiality for friendship

Quite frankly, a lot of your posts on this forum have been half truths, distortions, flames - the seething hatred for Pakistan barely disguised. The above being a perfect example of your attitude.

Take a break for a while and go get some therapy. I am sure such hatred and anger issues are detrimental to longterm health.

 

[Musalman]

I HAVE JUST ONE QUESTION WHY CAN'T INDIA AND PAKISTAN BE FRIENDS WHAT IS THE PROBLEM I MEAN THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND INDIA EXCEPT FOR RELIGION

Yes why not. It will be good for the whole region, but religious and military bigots on both side will never let it happen

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is not possible for Pakistan to look at India with anything other than hatred, contempt and feeling of annhilating India

Funny - that is the exact attitude that permeates Indian posters on Indian forums on the web and the blogosphere.

The kind of bile and bigotry I am referring to is not tolerated here and hardly expressed or followed, therefore, sir, I believe that your distorted diatribe above is more of a projection of your own attributes on to Pakistanis.

This is in fact based on a theory called 'psychological projection', "a defense mechanism in which one attributes one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts and/or emotions to others."

By letting such thoughts of bonohomie arise in an Indian mind, we are only making ourself vulnerable to further damage to India by our Western neighbors

The country that prides itself on being a "Martial Race" continues to sulk under the humiliation heaped on it in a manner that created a world record for the number of soldiers that surrendered in a War

As long as the military leadership contniue to govern Pakistan [overtly/covertly] such a possiblity is a mere mirage [not the aircraft ]

Truckloads of Pakistanis coming to India to seek employment in the entertainment industry in India - Humanitarian aid

First, allow me to correct your later lie/halftruth/distortion as well - only 40,000 soldiers surrendered in EP, the rest were government officials etc.

Pakistanis don't really care whether Indians allow 'bonhomie' to arise - as I see it you should have no trouble with that, given the sort of attitude on display by the likes of you - that psychological projection won't allow it!

By the way, Pakistanis accept Bangladesh more openly and genuinely than Indians and India have ever been capable of with Pakistan.

Having a 'never say die' attitude, which is really what the whole 'martial race theory' boils down to from the average individuals perspective, is actually a great attitude to have, and I hope it continues to prevail in Pakistan. If Indians feel insecure because of that then it is your problem.

The military governing Pakistan has nothing to do with 'friendship' with India, though it has a lot to do with allowing Pakistan's institutions to develop. The military is just a bogeyman created by Indians to try and get out of actually resolving any disputes or developing areas of common interest - moves that actually build friendships.

What will provide for long lasting friendship is when Indian politicians decide to honor their commitments under the UN and instrument of partition, and stop inciting their masses and brainwashing them, with the sort of lies, distortions and belligerence we have seen the Indian PM utter again today:Pakistan using terrorism as state policy: Indian PM

I suppose it is hard to tame the beast now - the GoI has for so long fed the Indian masses the opium of hate of Pakistan, and blamed it for every evil under the sun, that it is not possible for her to put the genie back in the bottle and be honest with her people, lest she be seen as 'weak and appeasing the enemy'.

So long as India continues to display such immature, hateful and lying tendencies, friendship will not be possible.

 

[Vinod2070]

I suppose it is hard to tame the beast now - the GoI has for so long fed the Indian masses the opium of hate of Pakistan, and blamed it for every evil under the sun, that it is not possible for her to put the genie back in the bottle and be honest with her people, lest she be seen as 'weak and appeasing the enemy'.

Let's just look at the curriculum of the two countries and objectively decide who is being fed hate!

 

[rubyjackass]

Let's just look at the curriculum of the two countries and objectively decide who is being fed hate!

True...
Any links to this information will be appreciated.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Let's just look at the curriculum of the two countries and objectively decide who is being fed hate!

I have - I am a product of the system, as are many others here, and the issue is being discussed in its own thread. Flaws there are, but I disagree that the flaws in the Pakistani curriculum are severe enough to come anywhere close to ingraining the sort of attributes alleged by slugger.

I just don't see the evidence supporting that hypothesis anywhere in Pakistan, nor do any of the public opinion polls or a number of non-Pakistani authors, journalists, commentators and analysts who have visited Pakistan, lived with her people and observed them.

Some Madrassa curriculum, perhaps falls into that category.

Curriculum does not indicate hate being ingrained, however, attitudes do, and my response to Slugger was to point out to him how his diatribe, his allegations of hate, intolerance, superiority etc, apply extremely well to Indians on forums and the blogosphere. His posts on this forum in fact illustrate how he himself is permeated with the very attributes he accuses Pakistanis off.

The problem with people like him, on both sides, is that as creatures of hate, prejudice and bigotry, friendship or peace will always remain a mirage.

Complete and utter subjugation in one form or another is the only solution for the likes of him - which is pretty much what he said.

 

[rubyjackass]

Curriculum does not indicate hate being ingrained,

Please do not downplay the effect of curriculum.
Thats pretty obvious... every student in the circle looks at it, as he grows up the ingrained notions become his facts.

 

[Vinod2070]

I have - I am a product of the system, as are many others here, and the issue is being discussed in its own thread. Flaws there are, but I disagree that the flaws in the Pakistani curriculum are severe enough to come anywhere close to ingraining the sort of attributes alleged by slugger.

I just don't see the evidence supporting that hypothesis anywhere in Pakistan, nor do any of the public opinion polls or a number of non-Pakistani authors, journalists, commentators and analysts who have visited Pakistan, lived with her people and observed them.

Some Madrassa curriculum, perhaps falls into that category.

Curriculum does not indicate hate being ingrained, however, attitudes do, and my response to Slugger was to point out to him how his diatribe, his allegations of hate, intolerance, superiority etc, apply extremely well to Indians on forums and the blogosphere. His posts on this forum in fact illustrate how he himself is permeated with the very attributes he accuses Pakistanis off.

The problem with people like him, on both sides, is that as creatures of hate, prejudice and bigotry, friendship or peace will always remain a mirage.

Complete and utter subjugation in one form or another is the only solution for the likes of him - which is pretty much what he said.

Individuals could be good or bad. They may have their individual opinions that may be unique to them or may belong to a small group of people.

What I meant was the attempt by the state to make the hate for the other country, people, faith, customs and identity a part of the curriculum and thereby make it incumbent for the coming generations to be steeped in hate towards the other country.

In this case the people who can get above the hates will be a minority group.

By all accounts, the curriculum not only of Madressas but the mainstream education promotes the hatred for India and Hindus in Pakistani students. You may be part of the same system and have kept yourself above that. That is a credit to you but in no way indemnifies the system.

The system teaches 4th graders to do Jihad, to hate the Bania Hindus, tells them that Hindus were treacherous, that they attacked the country in the night in 1965 (what is so strange about attcking in the night!), that they have never accepted the reality of Pakistan, that they need to be fought to the death, that they are enemies.....

In India, there is no curricula that teaches us to hate either Pakistan or any faith. Some people may still do that for other reasons. In Pakistan it is the reverse.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Please do not downplay the effect of curriculum.
Thats pretty obvious... every student in the circle looks at it, as he grows up the ingrained notions become his facts.

I will downplay the effects when there are none to speak off!

As I pointed out to Vinod, I just don't see the evidence supporting that hypothesis anywhere in Pakistan, nor do any of the public opinion polls or a number of non-Pakistani authors, journalists, commentators and analysts who have visited Pakistan, lived with her people and observed them.

Whatever flaws the curriculum has, it is not having the alleged impact on most Pakistanis.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Individuals could be good or bad. They may have their individual opinions that may be unique to them or may belong to a small group of people.

What I meant was the attempt by the state to make the hate for the other country, people, faith, customs and identity a part of the curriculum and thereby make it incumbent for the coming generations to be steeped in hate towards the other country.

In this case the people who can get above the hates will be a minority group.

By all accounts, the curriculum not only of Madressas but the mainstream education promotes the hatred for India and Hindus in Pakistani students. You may be part of the same system and have kept yourself above that. That is a credit to you but in no way indemnifies the system.

The system teaches 4th graders to do Jihad, to hate the Bania Hindus, tells them that Hindus were treacherous, that they attacked the country in the night in 1965 (what is so strange about attcking in the night!), that they have never accepted the reality of Pakistan, that they need to be fought to the death, that they are enemies.....

In India, there is no curricula that teaches us to hate either Pakistan or any faith. Some people may still do that for other reasons. In Pakistan it is the reverse.

Let me clarify one thing - I do not consider imbibing nationalism in Pakistanis, even by presenting a pro-Pakistan history, as wrong. Just look at the history threads here, both sides have very rational and logical arguments to support their POV on almost any historical subject. So when a Pakistani textbook states that India attacked Pakistan in 1965, then it is by no means a stretch since technically the declaration of war was by India, and Op. Gibralter, which Indians would argue was the initiation of war, was the result of a flagrant violation of the UNSC resolutions and an illegal usurpation of Kashmir.

Animosity towards India after her actions on Kashmir, her deliberate move to violate her obligations under the UN charter (in Nehru's own words as has been shown) and in East Pakistan, is deserved. I am against watering down anything related to that very real history, since India even today continues to be a hostile entity, as evidenced by her belligerence and warmongering and her supposedly 'moderate' leadership's lies and slander (just uttered today), and she must continue to be treated with distrust.

I am not sure what India teaches about Pakistan, but what is evident from the views of many Indians on the Web is a hatred, intolerance and completely ludicrous view of Pakistan and Pakistani society - this much is clear as crystal. This hatred is not limited to hatred against Pakistanis, but hatred against Muslims as well, though the latter is not as widespread.

As I said before, the reality of Pakistani opinion does not jive with the argument that the majority of Pakistanis have been 'brainwashed' into forever hating India.

In fact, Pakistanis react far more to the reality of Indian actions -such as their reaction to the belligerence out of the Indian leadership and media in the aftermath of Mumbai - friendship and sympathy quickly turned into anger and dislike, and the only one to blame for it was India.

 

[Vinod2070]

Let me clarify one thing - I do not consider imbibing nationalism in Pakistanis, even by presenting a pro-Pakistan history, as wrong. Just look at the history threads here, both sides have very rational and logical arguments to support their POV on almost any historical subject. So when a Pakistani textbook states that India attacked Pakistan in 1965, then it is by no means a stretch since technically the declaration of war was by India, and Op. Gibralter, which Indians would argue was the initiation of war, was the result of a flagrant violation of the UNSC resolutions and an illegal usurpation of Kashmir.

Animosity towards India after her actions on Kashmir, her deliberate move to violate her obligations under the UN charter (in Nehru's own words as has been shown) and in East Pakistan, is deserved. I am against watering down anything related to that very real history, since India even today continues to be a hostile entity, as evidenced by her belligerence and warmongering and her supposedly 'moderate' leadership's lies and slander (just uttered today), and she must continue to be treated with distrust.

I am not sure what India teaches about Pakistan, but what is evident from the views of many Indians on the Web is a hatred, intolerance and completely ludicrous view of Pakistan and Pakistani society - this much is clear as crystal. This hatred is not limited to hatred against Pakistanis, but hatred against Muslims as well, though the latter is not as widespread.

As I said before, the reality of Pakistani opinion does not jive with the argument that the majority of Pakistanis have been 'brainwashed' into forever hating India.

In fact, Pakistanis react far more to the reality of Indian actions -such as their reaction to the belligerence out of the Indian leadership and media in the aftermath of Mumbai - friendship and sympathy quickly turned into anger and dislike, and the only one to blame for it was India.

I will say a bit self serving post.

All the blame has been assigned to India. Which is OK if you want to speak as a Pakistani citizen but is obviously not completely true.

I don't think any of our people as a whole are demons out to get the other. Both the countries have reasons other than just being plain villains for what they have been doing. There is an excess of historical baggage that makes them do what may not appear rational to an impartial observer. There are inherited positions that are difficult to change.

So, I will say that this post itself proves that the curriculum is succeeding in it's mission of painting the other side as less than human, something to be hated and destroyed if possible.

Only it is resulting in more self-destruction. Not surprisingly!

 

[rubyjackass]

I will downplay the effects when there are none to speak off!

As I pointed out to Vinod, I just don't see the evidence supporting that hypothesis anywhere in Pakistan, nor do any of the public opinion polls or a number of non-Pakistani authors, journalists, commentators and analysts who have visited Pakistan, lived with her people and observed them.

There are none to speak off because unfortunately here anything south of the paranoia has to be regarded as patriotism.
People had always other serious things to worry about in Pakistan throughout its history.

Whatever flaws the curriculum has, it is not having the alleged impact on most Pakistanis.

I see the hint in your stubbornness.


Links to curriculum material(school) will be appreciated.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I will say a bit self serving post.

All the blame has been assigned to India. Which is OK if you want to speak as a Pakistani citizen but is obviously not completely true.

I don't think any of our people as a whole are demons out to get the other. Both the countries have reasons other than just being plain villains for what they have been doing. There is an excess of historical baggage that makes them do what may not appear rational to an impartial observer. There are inherited positions that are difficult to change.

So, I will say that this post itself proves that the curriculum is succeeding in it's mission of painting the other side as less than human, something to be hated and destroyed if possible.

Only it is resulting in more self-destruction. Not surprisingly!

Perhaps my post did come across as blaming India entirely, the leadership on both sides has fed the rot.

All I am saying is that there are people with unjustifiable reasons for hatred on both sides, and this hatred or animosity has been inculcated (or attempted to) in various ways by both governments.

I think that raising the curriculum bogey every time is unhelpful - one only has to look at the bonhomie that was starting to bloom on both sides of the border through the end of Musharraf's tenure.

What that showed us was that as the countries moved towards dispute resolution and shared interests, and cut down the rhetoric, the people reacted positively and embraced concepts of peace and friendship.

That is why I believe that despite all his faults, Zardari has by far been the better statesman in South Asia recently. I do not think it would be partisan of me to suggest that we need someone to match him from the Indian side.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There are none to speak off because unfortunately here anything south of the paranoia has to be regarded as patriotism.
People had always other serious things to worry about in Pakistan throughout its history.

I see the hint in your stubbornness.

Links to curriculum material(school) will be appreciated.

The stubbornness is in you where you recognize that what I stated was true, that there is no evidence indicating the accusations made are valid, yet you try and distort the issue with pointless rhetoric about 'south of paranoia' to try and make the same point.

I think that evidence showing a 'widespread hatred and intolerance towards India in Pakistanis', not matched by similar sentiments amongst Indians, and a causal relationship between that and the curriculum is what needs to be provided by people making your argument.