Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Signalian]

That was the Phenom
This is likely a 1-off executive transport as a cheaper alternative to a Phenom


in house AESA
Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.

ROSE 1 have Grifo M3 with ranges in 40 km. AGAVE isnt installed on ROSE II and ROSE III, instead a FLIR is there AFAIK. AGAVE has range of 27 km in A2A mode, while a much larger range in A2G/Anti ship mode.

M3s seem to be the candidates for new missile and new radar.

 

[SQ8]

ROSE 1 have Grifo M3 with ranges in 40 km. AGAVE isnt installed on ROSE II and ROSE III, instead a FLIR is there AFAIK. AGAVE has range of 27 km in A2A mode, while a much larger range in A2G/Anti ship mode.

M3s seem to be the candidates for new missile and new radar.

Agreed - I meant the Rose-I since they are the only ones with the M.

 

[Zephyrus]

Replacement of Y12 looks Cool

Those are the Beech King air,

 

[TsAr]

That was the Phenom
This is likely a 1-off executive transport as a cheaper alternative to a Phenom


in house AESA
Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.

what's your take on this? Should PAF have taken this route.

 

[araz]

Agreed - I meant the Rose-I since they are the only ones with the M.

I just fail to see the logic of it. What is the thinking behind this move? Please advise.
A

 

[SQ8]

what's your take on this? Should PAF have taken this route.

Considering that the country’s financial situation is going down rapidly - it really is the only choice available to keep some semblance of parity with the primary threat.

Moreover, Gokdogan also has a lot of growth available - so eventually as Pakistan diversifies from China in terms of air to air missiles and associated radar systems it will be more easier to make work.

Having the longest stick matters - for now that remains with Pakistan but for a few assets. Having Gokdogan for the Mirages means 40 odd additional BVRs but at the same time it opens up the idea of a local AESA and other kit on a JF-17 block 4 that breaks away from some current limitations on the platform.

I just fail to see the logic of it. What is the thinking behind this move? Please advise.
A

Paucity of funds is the primary delivery but it enables assets which due to MRF still have good life in them to provide an additional BVR capability.

Think of the JF-17 being pushed to more offensive interdiction roles which leaves interception duties open. That can be taken up by the Mirage 3s as lobbing BVR weapons is sometimes sufficient to get an enemy strike element to ditch its ground weapons load to defend and scrub the mission.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Considering that the country’s financial situation is going down rapidly - it really is the only choice available to keep some semblance of parity with the primary threat.

Moreover, Gokdogan also has a lot of growth available - so eventually as Pakistan diversifies from China in terms of air to air missiles and associated radar systems it will be more easier to make work.

Having the longest stick matters - for now that remains with Pakistan but for a few assets. Having Gokdogan for the Mirages means 40 odd additional BVRs but at the same time it opens up the idea of a local AESA and other kit on a JF-17 block 4 that breaks away from some current limitations on the platform.


Paucity of funds is the primary delivery but it enables assets which due to MRF still have good life in them to provide an additional BVR capability.

Think of the JF-17 being pushed to more offensive interdiction roles which leaves interception duties open. That can be taken up by the Mirage 3s as lobbing BVR weapons is sometimes sufficient to get an enemy strike element to ditch its ground weapons load to defend and scrub the mission.

I think the Turks might be more amenable to integrating their AAMs as well as radar-guided SOWs (e.g., Atmaca, Gokhan, etc) to Pakistan's in-house AESA radars. So, this approach could open the way for a local retrofit/upgrade program for the JF-17 Block-I and Block-II.

It might also lead to a proper, bottom-up learning process of how to integrate weapons to the JF-17. Yes, the JF-17 would be a 'strange new world' for the Turks, but at least they have the capacity to figure it out. Ideally, they'd help Pakistan build a comparable ability (via our private sector) so that we can actually take on meaningful work from other TAI projects down the line (thereby helping TAI free up its Turkish facilities, lower development costs by leveraging Pakistan's labor market, etc).

 

[TsAr]

Considering that the country’s financial situation is going down rapidly - it really is the only choice available to keep some semblance of parity with the primary threat.

Moreover, Gokdogan also has a lot of growth available - so eventually as Pakistan diversifies from China in terms of air to air missiles and associated radar systems it will be more easier to make work.

I agree, more over it would be interesting to see if any TOT is involved.

 

[Sayfullah]

in house AESA
Rose Mirages Grifo M + SD-10 combo isn’t working out as planned. So, they may be reworked to AESA + Gokdogan.

Are mirage engines powerful enough for an aesa? If mirage 3 might get AESA and Gokdogan would it be worth it upgrading the engine as well?

 

[SQ8]

Are mirage engines powerful enough for an aesa? If mirage 3 might get AESA and Gokdogan would it be worth it upgrading the engine as well?

Engine power may not be the only metric there - but if it can support the Grifo M at 2KVQ it should be able to do a radar

 

[mingle]

Engine power may not be the only metric there - but if it can support the Grifo M at 2KVQ it should be able to do a radar

I would love duel rack Gokdogan along two WRM like Aim9 2/2 combo would be a great for our mirages does we need cockpit renovation as well???

 

[SQ8]

I would love duel rack Gokdogan along two WRM like Aim9 2/2 combo would be a great for our mirages does we need cockpit renovation as well???

It’s all speculation but it depends on the MFD controller and symbology generator as to what it can and cannot support.

However, keep in mind that Mirages have no place for complex wiring other than the centerline station.

This is the electric or rather mix systems/electric diagram for the Mirage IIIO which is the ROSE-I aircraft of PAF. That missile power from DC and specifically the controller from radar only goes to the centerline.
The PAF doesn’t actually rewire the whole stations because there may not be space to run the wiring and any altering of the spar structure or otherwise could structurally compromise the aircraft

Atar 9c

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Are mirage engines powerful enough for an aesa? If mirage 3 might get AESA and Gokdogan would it be worth it upgrading the engine as well?

GaN based AESA would be more power efficient than what is currently installed

 

[araz]

It’s all speculation but it depends on the MFD controller and symbology generator as to what it can and cannot support.

However, keep in mind that Mirages have no place for complex wiring other than the centerline station.

This is the electric or rather mix systems/electric diagram for the Mirage IIIO which is the ROSE-I aircraft of PAF. That missile power from DC and specifically the controller from radar only goes to the centerline.
The PAF doesn’t actually rewire the whole stations because there may not be space to run the wiring and any altering of the spar structure or otherwise could structurally compromise the aircraft

Atar 9c

A quick question. Did the South Africans do any work to alter the lack of wiring for the wings weapons bay. If so they might have wing designs and jigs which could be bought. I am just throwing it out there but these things are beyond my knowledge base. Help/ correction will be greatly appreciated. Another question is regarding how they will cool the AESA. Will there be enough space for installation of cooling equipment or will the AESA be Air cooled?
Regards
A

 

[SQ8]

A quick question. Did the South Africans do any work to alter the lack of wiring for the wings weapons bay. If so they might have wing designs and jigs which could be bought. I am just throwing it out there but these things are beyond my knowledge base. Help/ correction will be greatly appreciated. Another question is regarding how they will cool the AESA. Will there be enough space for installation of cooling equipment or will the AESA be Air cooled?
Regards
A

That I am not aware of but I don’t think the work with Denel went beyond integration of the Raptor.. @denel could tell more