Pakistan Affairs post about SHAHEEN 3 Range

[Mrc]

so we have ww2 era v2 level rockets... even inferior I would say... which have a peculiar flight profile reaching height of 600 kms and speed of mach 18.... which is pretty much only missile at range of 2750 to do that in the world....(supposing range is true)......but it remain around 250 year behind maha bharti mijjiles made of magic portions...although most of them attain less height and terminal speed (atleast the deployed ones)

my inferior thinking is totally getting it

 

[Safriz]

so we have ww2 era v2 level rockets... even inferior I would say... which have a peculiar flight profile reaching height of 600 kms and speed of mach 18.... which is pretty much only missile at range of 2750 to do that in the world....(supposing range is true)......but it remain around 250 year behind maha bharti mijjiles made of magic portions...although most of them attain less height and terminal speed (atleast the deployed ones)

my inferior thinking is totally getting it

The carbon fibre resin composite everyone is talking about is expensive to make and such missiles need additional protection via encasing them in tubes .
Such arrangements are only made for weight reduction. It's not about not being able to do so but actual need of it.
Pakistan doesn't need such drastic weight reductions and hen pay penalty by mending to encapsulate the missile. Hence continues using steel alloy missiles.

 

[Bratva]

so we have ww2 era v2 level rockets... even inferior I would say... which have a peculiar flight profile reaching height of 600 kms and speed of mach 18.... which is pretty much only missile at range of 2750 to do that in the world....(supposing range is true)......but it remain around 250 year behind maha bharti mijjiles made of magic portions...although most of them attain less height and terminal speed (atleast the deployed ones)

my inferior thinking is totally getting it

You have think from various angles. Indians has experience via their Space program and access to top notch raw materials, electronics, COTS and composites. While Pakistan NESCOM and defence institutes are under sanction and have a deficiency of, everything, to be exact.

Forget about Indian missiles, Just have a look at N.Korea ICBM. Range and The type of fuel they are using (Are you seeing any smoke coming out of their ICBM). We have to admit, Pakistani BM program is lagging in terms of quality

 

[Mrc]

You have think from various angles. Indians has experience via their Space program and access to top notch raw materials, electronics, COTS and composites. While Pakistan NESCOM and defence institutes are under sanction and have a deficiency of, everything, to be exact.

Forget about Indian missiles, Just have a look at N.Korea ICBM. Range and The type of fuel they are using (Are you seeing any smoke coming out of their ICBM). We have to admit, Pakistani BM program is lagging in terms of quality

I understand and I agree.... an I am not a rocket scientist....
but I also do know that same sanctioned programme has pumped out 6 types of cruise missiles (babur 1-3 raad 1-2 and azb), has incorporated ABM evasive post separation manuverability in ballistic missiles and tested MIRV.. while that shuper dhuper magic proportion bhorti mijjiles are proding along Volvo trucks..and have failed with every test of a cruise missile and project stands all but abandoned.. so do try to understand my apprehensions as well

I am no fan boy and usually first to criticise military.... but you have to give the devil its due...where it deserves it...

one think all our keyboard warriors probably don't understand, it the importance of 2 tests of shaheen 3.....

they were testing a new thing never tested before.... that's the 3rd stage and its separation..... range perhaps is not whats stated and any ways is utterly UN important, as far as I know , even the longest range missiles have 3 stages. there has never been a 4 stage missile.... so they now have tested every thing they need to build a longer range missile....

but no...... magic composite is only thing that counts I guess

 

[Safriz]

You have think from various angles. Indians has experience via their Space program and access to top notch raw materials, electronics, COTS and composites. While Pakistan NESCOM and defence institutes are under sanction and have a deficiency of, everything, to be exact.

Forget about Indian missiles, Just have a look at N.Korea ICBM. Range and The type of fuel they are using (Are you seeing any smoke coming out of their ICBM). We have to admit, Pakistani BM program is lagging in terms of quality

Errrr.

our stores are full of samples bought during the collapse of USSR and some samples are top notch.

North Korean missile does not produce smoke same as Ghauri , because both are liquid fueled.

Even today overseas Pakistanis get jailed for transferring prohibited technology to Pakistan, so access to technology is there.

Local R&D in universities is quite good too and country can make the needful on it's own.

Problem is nuclear doctrine of minimum deterrence hence the minimalism and only doing the absolute necessity, nothing more.

 

[Safriz]

As an approximation for ICBM the warhead to launch weight ratio is 2-3.5 %.
So an SS-18 of Russia carrying 7 ton warhead needs to be 207 ton at launch. 3.3% efficient.
A minuteman carrying 3x W78 warheads each weighing 360 Kilos,total 1.080 Tons of warheads, the missile needs to be 35 tons on launch or 3% efficient.
For Pakistan to have ICBM with the warhead launched on original Ghauri which was 700 Kg and taking into account lower end of ICBM efficiency of 2%, the Missile will need to be weighing 34 tons on Launch.
For India with strategic warheads weighing 1.5 tons each, launching a single warhead to ICBM range will need a missile weighing 75 tons at 2% efficiency and 50 tons at 3% efficiency .

 

[amardeep mishra]

As an approximation for ICBM the warhead to launch weight ratio is 2-3.5 %.
So an SS-18 of Russia carrying 7 ton warhead needs to be 207 ton at launch. 3.3% efficient.
A minuteman carrying 3x W78 warheads each weighing 360 Kilos,total 1.080 Tons of warheads, the missile needs to be 35 tons on launch or 3% efficient.
For Pakistan to have ICBM with the warhead launched on original Ghauri which was 700 Kg and taking into account lower end of ICBM efficiency of 2%, the Missile will need to be weighing 34 tons on Launch.
For India with strategic warheads weighing 1.5 tons each, launching a single warhead to ICBM range will need a missile weighing 75 tons at 2% efficiency and 50 tons at 3% efficiency .

Hi @Shaheen!
It is often advisable to first go through plethora of published scientific literature before writing comments because a lot of people actually read comments and they would end up getting wrong information. Let me point out some specifics-
1) The launch weight ratio or the useful payload compared to the original total mass or propellant mass ratio of the rocket at launch is determined by the kind of fuel used i.e either solid or liquid. Liquids in general burn much more "uniformly" and emit lesser unburnt particles vis-a-vis solids. The Isp figures progressively increase as we move from UDMH(hypergollic) to LOX/kerosene(semi-cryogenic) to LOX/LH(cryogenic). Solids on the other hand do not burn as cleanly and hence emit smoke, presence of powdered Aluminum to increase the heat content of the propellant makes the situation worse as it forms HCl plumes which are fairly visible. In nutshell, one would need smaller mass of liquid fuel to produce the same amount of thrust. That is the reason why cryogenic engines have lowest propellant mass fraction ~85%, followed by semi cryogenics at ~88-90%, followed by Hypergolics at 91-95% and then comes the solid rockets- they have a propellant mass fraction of >95%(more likely 97%!)!

Local R&D in universities is quite good too and country can make the needful on it's own.

I am afraid you have no research exposure. For if you knew, you would also know that Pakistani contribution(by Pakistani contribution I mean research produced by likes of IST, NUST or similar colleges) to various top notch Aerospace journals like AIAA, International Journal of Control, International Journal of Nonlinear and Robust Control is virtually non-existent. Pakistan would have to do a hell lot more before it can work things on their own.

Such arrangements are only made for weight reduction. It's not about not being able to do so but actual need of it.
Pakistan doesn't need such drastic weight reductions and hen pay penalty by mending to encapsulate the missile. Hence continues using steel alloy missiles.

I am afraid you are sounding very naive. The advantages rendered by composites are many fold particularly for SLBMs. Also Canisterization reduces the launch time drastically. For instance where a normal Solid fueled missiles take anywhere between 30-40mins to launch, a canisterized composite missile can be launched in less than 10mins!

 

[.]

Range is not even relevant if not in deployed status.
What about the report back in 2015 by US air space intelligence that it had 5000 km range? I would doubt Pakistan affairs but can't doubt the Report presented to US senators.

Shaheen 3 can be launched on TEL to various distances from certain provinces like it can reach Israel and if deployed in Punjab it can reach Nicobar/ Andaman Islands, similar with ababeel , it just houses the mirv bus and is a slight modification to shaheeen 3, so they have a effective battlefield range of 5000km.

 

[My-Analogous]

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This is the video of North Korea's Hwasong-14 ICBM.
Note the first stage burning up in atmosphere as seen at 1 minute 6 seconds in the video, the white smoke trail.
Obviously the stage must have separated before 66 seconds . The moment when a rocket stage burns all fuel and gets separated is called "Burnout time".
On the other hand Pakistan's Shaheen-3 first stage burns for at least 57 seconds , may be 60 seconds.
Yet North Korean Missile is said to have a range of 7000+ Kilometers, but Pakistani missile as a range of just 2750 Kilometers?
Its another thing that North Korean missile is liquid fueled and has slower acceleration, Pakisani Shaheen-3 is solid fueled and accelerates much faster and has a higher speed than Hwasong-14 at first stage Burnout.
Other thing is Pakistani Shaheen-3 has a larger second stage and also carries a third stage.
North Korean Missile has only a second stage and no third stage.
Pakistani Missile's Warhead is much lighter than the one carried by North Korean missile, so they need much more energy to carry their warhead to target, ours need lesser energy.
For same amount of acceleration ours will go further.
But lets all say that Pakistani Shaheen-3 has a range of 2750 Kilometers and not a meter more


This is what it says please your opinion is needed @The Deterrent @Horus

Brother it is only matter of stages and trajectory. Pakistan do have both technology, Ababeel is example of that