Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Luftwaffe]

It makes no sense for Pakistan to buy out dated planes when we can get planes that can target 10 planes in air with BVR missiles

KLJ 7? monitors 10, engages simultaneous fire at 2 thus target 10 is wrong.

 

[MastanKhan]

^^ haven't this issue discussed already ?

I know i was there, and so was mk.

why has thread not deleted as yet

Hi,

The reason this caption is being discussed is that paf has not moved too far ahead of where it was 10 years ago----.

 

[Mani2020]

Hi,

The reason this caption is being discussed is that paf has not moved too far ahead of where it was 10 years ago----.

Mere bhai with due respect can we leave the discussion now? as it has been done to death , shall we move on ?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Mere bhai with due respect can we leave the discussion now? as it has been done to death , shall we move on ?

Can the criminals caught red handed move on or should they pay for all the ills they have caused those who presented minority report needs to apologize to People of Pakistan for settling for inferior in the modern age of 90s when the whole world was moving forward towards next generation Mirage 2000 had already been upgraded to - standards by that 3x advanced by then F-16s in our inventory with powerful radar and weapons suites and here criminals got away with cash and knowledge of the forbidden and threw all under carpet remained silent and settled for inferior. Like I said before I would have settled for 2/3 squadrons of Mirage 2000-5 then 150 F-7s. Our neighbors is swift the culprits in bofor case were found to be guilty however the middleman couldn't be caught because he was in a country where india and Argentina has no extradition treaty. These criminals are retired and in Pakistan they need to be arrested and investigated they need to clarify their stance for why they settled for inferior where had all the money gone what other option were available that were rejected. We cry all the time why french and british treat us bad you know its all our fault we never extended our friendship and hand to them, if we had better relations with british we would have gotten our hands on tornadoes and they were not inferior planes.

Hear me PAF while settling for inferior it again chose to settle for the inferior with-in F-7 variants PAF has 135 F-7P and only 57-60 PGs, now you can image even in these F-7s PAF chose to pick the inferior ones.

 

[MZUBAIR]

coz these mirages are twin engine , atleast that's what bloger of the article thinks..

Twin engine never gives an edge.....
Twin engine gives u benefit to take more load.....nothing else

AND PAF have more potent aircrafts[F16, JF17] then Mirage 2K-9

 

[MastanKhan]

Mere bhai with due respect can we leave the discussion now? as it has been done to death , shall we move on ?

Aren't we going to charge some real people in uniform----this discussion has gone nowhere and is not going to go away----unless paf is held criminally responsible.

 

[MastanKhan]

Twin engine never gives an edge.....
Twin engine gives u benefit to take more load.....nothing else

AND PAF have more potent aircrafts[F16, JF17] then Mirage 2K-9

So,

More load means more missiles----more bombs----more power-----that is not an edge-----.

Mzubair----my good man----where have you been----we only got 18 F16's BLK 52----our JF 17 have not been integrated with bvr's----on an operational level----. The M2K9 is of the same calibre as the BLK 52 and the JF 17 doesnot comeclose to it or the BLK 52 in operational and electronics capabilites.

 

[Mech]

JF - 17 has an all metal body, ie, no composites. It uses an old Russian engine that are known to have issues with sustaining thrust using afterburners. 45-49kn dry , 80-83kn wet. Only bvr capable missile integrated into it is the Chinese variant and remains "cloaked in mystery". The Chinese KJ-7 radar will ensure the JF-17 get shot down before it may even begin to detect a hostile.

My point is, JF-17 has a long long way to go before it grows into a mature and potent platform. It is at best a very good 3.5 gen platform.

**sourced the tech info from JF-17 information pool and jagitnatt in IDF**

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

JF - 17 has an all metal body, ie, no composites. It uses an old Russian engine that are known to have issues with sustaining thrust using afterburners. 45-49kn dry , 80-83kn wet. Only bvr capable missile integrated into it is the Chinese variant and remains "cloaked in mystery". The Chinese KJ-7 radar will ensure the JF-17 get shot down before it may even begin to detect a hostile.

My point is, JF-17 has a long long way to go before it grows into a mature and potent platform. It is at best a very good 3.5 gen platform.

**sourced the tech info from JF-17 information pool and jagitnatt in IDF**

1)Not all metal body composites are being used......see the pic in JF-17 info pool thread
2)It is not using ur mig-29s rd-33 but improved RD-93......While being tested with WS-13.
3)Pics of JF-17 with SD-10-A have been uploaded several times........ or u can just see the specs listed on the UK airshow:
Raad alcm
MAR-1-1A
H2-H4-BVR
SD-10 n variants
etc
4)Its using the same (smaller)radar as the J-10......while AESA is under development.
5)Its using KG-3000 israeli tech based developed by china.
6)U forgot counter measure suite etc


3.5 gen?must be kiddin me........heck even ur pal russians r scared of it.

Some old news frm russia:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...e-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan-32.html#post1107333


MK is not aware of the capabilites of JF-17 yet he belittles the jet..... n is in love with a vintage jet whose production lines have been stopped.

 

[rockstarIN]

Mk2 is as vintage as F-16s, the point is Americans are good sellers with their soft power but French guys are not.

 

[Jhon001]

The Royal Pakistan Air Force (RPAF) was established on 14 August 1947 with the independence of Pakistan from British India. The RPAF began with 2,332 personnel, a fleet of 24 Tempest II fighter-bombers, 16 Hawker Typhoon fighters, 2 H.P.57 Halifax bombers, 2 Auster aircraft, 12 North American Harvard trainers and 10 de Havilland Tiger Moth biplanes. It also received 8 C-47 Dakota cargo planes which it used to transport supplies to soldiers fighting in the 1947 War in Kashmir against India. However, the RPAF did not receive all of the aircraft that it was originally allotted at the time of independence of South Asia. It started with 7 operational airbases scattered all over the provinces. The prefix Royal was removed when Pakistan became a republic on 23 March 1956. It has since been called the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

 

[Mani2020]

Aren't we going to charge some real people in uniform----this discussion has gone nowhere and is not going to go away----unless paf is held criminally responsible.

The fate of those people will be the same like many others who have done so much worst to this country but are wondering around freely , many example includes our politicians . Also the whole PAF can't be blamed for all this because of few culprits who committed that . Plus still it is to be known that whether there was also some political involvement in that deal or not, as far as i know and the common notion suggests that some people in political circles were asking for their chunk of share from the deal as a result the deal became too damn expensive.

It was similar to what emerged from Agosta-90B submarine deal when the public came to know about the extra money paid to political circles and many lives were lost in defending that , you must remember that incident where french engineers and few others were killed . usually french deals are very fragile with respect to the real money involved , on paper a mirage-2000 may be costing 30 million or so at that time or even less but after including the lobbying cost and the shares for corrupt officers or political people from both sides would have really hyped the price .

One can hardly conclude what was the real thing, coz most of us know what is apparent ,the reality may still be far far away . You are more experienced than me you must know how many things and faces work behind a political deal

 

[Mani2020]

Mk2 is as vintage as F-16s, the point is Americans are good sellers with their soft power but French guys are not.

Nope, the difference is that F-16s have been continuously evolved with new features and major upgrades from the previous blocks and the production line is still operational while that for mirage-2000 is being closed also not to forget that only minor changes were made by the french in mirages on their own so they had nothing much improved to offer, the rest changes were made on the demand of the users unlike f-16s where every new block was emerged and offered to the customers.

Also CFTs as well as AESA were and are offered with f-16s along with new weapons while none was the case with mirage-2000, the latest f-16's can fire all the latest weaponary in the US inventory unlike mirage which needs specific upgrades to fire new systems , also not to forget the wide range of weapon usage and sensors f-16 offers if they are released to the customers .

F-16 has evolved over the time with "continuous improvement" strategy but for france the next step from mirage-2000 was mirage-4000 and then Rafale

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Very aptly put Mani2020. I think that hit the nail on its head.

Bottom line -- Mirage 2000 acquisiton would have been a disaster for PAF in hindsight as compared to F-16 which is still up there with modern front line fighters.

 

[Mani2020]

Very aptly put Mani2020. I think that hit the nail on its head.

Bottom line -- Mirage 2000 acquisiton would have been a disaster for PAF in hindsight as compared to F-16 which is still up there with modern front line fighters.

Also Amir the thing is that we are getting our f-16 complete MLU upgrades which not only includes avionics, radar, new HMS and engine changes but also structural changes resulting the expansion of their lives at almost half of a price of the Mirage-2000 upgrade offered by france to our neighbours , When mirage-2000 upgrades are less extensive than the f-16 MLU .There are negativities too but as we are talking just about technical basis , so for that other factors should be ignored and the stated comparison must be just on technical basis