Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Archie]

I did mention it earlier, IAF will be at much more ease of inducting these platforms as they would already have infrastructure in place and these are coming quite cheap (50% of the price of a vintage 4th Gen). But an issue that i see with IAF is that its literally unwilling to reduce it types operated, they could have let Fulcrums retire and let Tejas do the job, but they didn't. They could have let M-2000 go and let MMRCA do its job, but they didn't. The same goes for Jaguar, Looks like IAF only wants to induct not retire anything.......I wont be surprised if Russians turn up with another Mig-21 upgrade and IAF accepts it, looks like its very possible.

That is not exactly correct
The way u are speaking is that u believe that PAF does not have a single 3rd gen fighter in service
Why should India retire 4th gen Mirage 2000 and Mig29s when we already have a large inventory of 3.5 Gen fighter to phase out before
As per current plan our fleet of 155 Mig21 and 95 Mig27 will retire by 2017-18
These will be followed by retirement of Jaguars between 2020-25 , Mig29 and Mirage 2000 will retire between 2026-30

The reason why i suport purchase of 30 of the Younger Mirage2009 is becoz of this retirement plan itself
We will retire 250 Mig21/27 by 2017 , but during the same period we are unlikely to induct more than 200-220 Fighters ( 120 Su30MKI , 50 LCA , 40-50 mmrca in next 6 yrs)
Currently we have 650+ Fighters spread across 33 sqds against a sanctioned strength of 780 Fighters in 39.5 Sqds ie we are already short of 130 Fighters or 6.5 sqds
By 2017 this shortage could rise to 160 Fighters and 8 Sqds , before again falling to 80 Fighters and 4 sqds by 2022 thanks mainly due to simultaneous Induction of PAKFA , LCA and mmrca

 

[Archie]

you belive these blogs ?

Actually its my personal opinion
Frankly if we can pay 40 Mil USD each to upgrade our 51 Mirage 2000H , then we should pay 32 Mil USD each to buy 30 Mirage2009 Inducted by UAE in 2002-04

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir even in Pakistani deals, French deals are the most notorious ones. From Brazil to India, French are known to be people trying to bribe their way in rather than competing on merit. From buying a stand at airshow to selling subs, French have earned the reputation of being cheaters themselves, something Pakistan didn't cause. The deal for Mir-2000 was scrapped due to allegations of kickbacks, not Pakistan going for US platform. The naval engineers bus incident was also tracked back to kickbacks. PAF was in favor of Mir-2000 but had the deal been transparent, we would have seen them flying in green. Anyways, Type-214 was more advanced than Agosta, the french offered Merlin, a drawing board concept to compete against an in production boat. What do you think would be the obvious choice? The french again reportedly jumped in with their dirty tactics to "motivate" Zardari sahib to reconsider the deal. The french made a nuke deal with Pakistan and then backed out, they made a deal on JFT parts and then backed out, Sir they are not bad marketers as u put them, they are cleaver in a way that they try to make up for their product quality by "other means". They had two choices, either do a 10 Billion USD business with India or do a 1.2 Billion Business with Pakistan, they went that way which offered better prospectus to them. There is a saying about French, Pretty much sums up their modus operandi.

Hasnain Mani,

My little brothers----when you are grown ups and get to the leadership positions in your life---and the welfare and the security lies underneath your signatures and judgements----remember one thing----major weapons purchases are not stopped due to allegations regarding 'bakhshish' payolas paybacks or anything else----.

Always remember this incidence and keep it in your minds as precedence-----Gandhi the son was charged with accepting bribes on the purchase of BOFORS 155 mm howitzers----opponents were blaming that the guns were inferior and Gandhi had not much of an answer but except for 15 or 16 years later----at Kargil----in his life he could never take that blemish off his name-----but Kargil proved it otherwise----a fifteen plus years old howitzer system proved beyond the wildest imagination of the indian millitary as to what it could do and also put all those superstar critics to shame once for all-----and shut their mouths real good.

But it didnot happen just like that---Gandhi was not a weak kneed politician or a pakistani air force ACM-----he knew what he had and he bet his political life on what he knew was the absolute best----because in engineering sciences there are known truths---and one of them is that the SWEDES make absolutely one of the best machinery of whatever kind it is----regardless if they can sell them in large numbers or not---but whatever comes out of that production line----you can put the stamp of trust on it----same is the case with the french weapons systems---regardless of how they make their cars----their weapons systems are at par with anyone.

The tragedy in this argument is that most of you have a blind following for the paf---if there was one God up in the heavens----then the other god is the paf in pakistan-----.

Pakistanis need to check their mindsets----they cannot base their nations security on what they are going to get in the future to what they have in hand-----stop making fools of yourselevs---stop lying to your selves----stop trying to look good in front of the mirror.

 

[ANG]

Hi, Mr. MK has an excellent point. The French make quality weapons, pricey though, but nonetheless high quality and reliable. The PAF blew it in the 90s, they were stupid enough to keep making payments on embargoed F-16s, even when the Pressler amendment had been invoked.

The PAF used the potential Mirage 2000 purchase as a feable attempt of leverage against the US, in order to release the embargoed F-16s. Then they did not even have the guts to sue the US in order to get their money back, and basically accepted soybeans in lieu of return of payments. In the process they completly pissed off the French and the Russians.

By the Russians, I mean the PAF has the opportunity of buying Mig-29s and/or Su-27s from the Ukraine or Russia right after the breakup of the USSR. However, the Pakistani government and the PAF were still in awe of the US and did not make any attempts to pursue this avenue or purse detene with the former USSR states. They blew that chance also. Now they are stuck with trojan horse filled F-16s. How pathetic!

http://tribune.com.pk/story/249874/wikileaks-on-shahbaz-airbase-f-16s-flew-in-with-guaranteed-us-presence-at-base/

Lastly, not to digress, but rather reinforce Mr. MK's point. The Bofors guns wreaked havoc on the Pakistani forces who occuppied the Kargil heights. I have heard PA members mention the Bofors guns unleashed a deadly rain of anti-personnel bomblets that basically caused massive destruction. Bottom line, the Swedes make quality products!

 

[luckyyy]

is this the bloger think is a mirage 2000-9

 

[MZUBAIR]

Why PAF would buy it when they JF and F-16 ????

 

[luckyyy]

Why PAF would buy it when they JF and F-16 ????

coz these mirages are twin engine , atleast that's what bloger of the article thinks..

 

[Paan Singh]

india should go for them..we already have platform for it.

 

[jha]

india should go for them..we already have platform for it.

Something is cooking. Atleast this is what the exorbitant upgrade price suggest..Either we are paying the money to reduce the price of Rafale in the public eye or, we are going for extra Mirages..

 

[Mech]

india should go for them..we already have platform for it.

I for one, agree. We already have a support infrastructure and pilots with experience on this particular platform.

 

[SBD-3]

Hasnain Mani,

My little brothers----when you are grown ups and get to the leadership positions in your life---and the welfare and the security lies underneath your signatures and judgements----remember one thing----major weapons purchases are not stopped due to allegations regarding 'bakhshish' payolas paybacks or anything else----.

Always remember this incidence and keep it in your minds as precedence-----Gandhi the son was charged with accepting bribes on the purchase of BOFORS 155 mm howitzers----opponents were blaming that the guns were inferior and Gandhi had not much of an answer but except for 15 or 16 years later----at Kargil----in his life he could never take that blemish off his name-----but Kargil proved it otherwise----a fifteen plus years old howitzer system proved beyond the wildest imagination of the indian millitary as to what it could do and also put all those superstar critics to shame once for all-----and shut their mouths real good.

But it didnot happen just like that---Gandhi was not a weak kneed politician or a pakistani air force ACM-----he knew what he had and he bet his political life on what he knew was the absolute best----because in engineering sciences there are known truths---and one of them is that the SWEDES make absolutely one of the best machinery of whatever kind it is----regardless if they can sell them in large numbers or not---but whatever comes out of that production line----you can put the stamp of trust on it----same is the case with the french weapons systems---regardless of how they make their cars----their weapons systems are at par with anyone.

The tragedy in this argument is that most of you have a blind following for the paf---if there was one God up in the heavens----then the other god is the paf in pakistan-----.

Pakistanis need to check their mindsets----they cannot base their nations security on what they are going to get in the future to what they have in hand-----stop making fools of yourselevs---stop lying to your selves----stop trying to look good in front of the mirror.

Sir, I am not blind amongst the blind followers of PAF. They are human beings afterall, not better than you and me or anyother living human on this planet. If you remeber, I was amongst the posters who slammed the decision of dropping grippen on the basis of "we can't handle that advanced technology". I was amongst the posters who condemned the Falconization of PAF mindset. I never said PAF made every decision correct, at times, they took huge risks e.g. going with Chinese electronics, BVR option and other examples. Which could have jeopredize the whole security plan, had there been a failure. Everybody makes mistakes, being an adminitrator, a ruler, a doctor and a human being. But what i said was could french stand up confidently in front of other military machines? Even Brazilians dumped Rafale initally in favor of Grippen, only to be rescued by French government invading to help it. German machinary has a hallmark of its own, their Type-212 and 214 have quality stamped all over it. no wonder the navies have a look at them. Do you know Pakistan went with German torpedos for Agosta instead of French. I am not doubting the French quality, but they just dont have the confidence in themselves that they can achieve it in a fair game.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

These 30 birds will become a headache for PAF, if they ever tried to acquire them.
because it would be a totally new platform for PAF that requires maintenance, training of Pilots, GC and engineers. etc while mirage 2000 era is about to over. operating and maintaining Dassault Mirage-3/5 doesn't mean that we can operate any bird of Dassault.
PAF must not even look at them.



For this case, i am Thankful to GOD we are totally out of money

 

[Mani2020]

The bottom line is its done and dusted , we should move on now as now we have better options , now regretting on past is like hitting the head with the wall, better to learn from the mistakes and not repeat them .

End of the topic

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Always remember this incidence and keep it in your minds as precedence-----Gandhi the son was charged with accepting bribes on the purchase of BOFORS 155 mm howitzers----opponents were blaming that the guns were inferior and Gandhi had not much of an answer but except for 15 or 16 years later----at Kargil----in his life he could never take that blemish off his name-----but Kargil proved it otherwise----a fifteen plus years old howitzer system proved beyond the wildest imagination of the indian millitary as to what it could do and also put all those superstar critics to shame once for all-----and shut their mouths real good.

But it didnot happen just like that---Gandhi was not a weak kneed politician or a pakistani air force ACM-----he knew what he had and he bet his political life on what he knew was the absolute best----because in engineering sciences there are known truths---and one of them is that the SWEDES make absolutely one of the best machinery of whatever kind it is----regardless if they can sell them in large numbers or not---but whatever comes out of that production line----you can put the stamp of trust on it----same is the case with the french weapons systems---regardless of how they make their cars----their weapons systems are at par with anyone.

I agree with most of the part there.... The Bofors is one hell of a platform. Rajiv corrupted or not but these guns were excellent. The Swedes and French may not be good marketers but they got quality in their products. Again I will think twice rejecting their products.

 

[MastanKhan]

. I am not doubting the French quality, but they just dont have the confidence in themselves that they can achieve it in a fair game.

In weapons purchase, there is never a fair game----and the best system is not always need to be purchased all the time----. Sometimes the second best can do as good a job as the first best because they are so closely matched----.

Yes, everybody makes mistakes----but when it comes to PAF---they have set a new standards for folly for whicha yardstick has not been developed yet.