Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[T-123456]

Yup... they add no additional capability ... better get more F-16s n develop JFT.

Exactly bro,

 

[Kompromat]

If then they should sponsor it,who always protects them?

Lets see

You should sponsor JF-17s for Azerbaijan but pay us back in T-129Bs. Good old barter

 

[greatone]

That is precisely what i said. The UAEAF F-16s won't be able to to integrate French missiles should they refuse to buy the Rafale

If UAE does not buy Rafale, they wont be able to sell the Mirage 2k9 and hence still be able to use the MICA.Jesus /

UAE F-16s carry AIM-120C7 AMRAAMs and only an idiot is going to agree with you that MICA is 'better' let alone 'way better' than the AMRAAMs and AIM-9X.

Look on the wingtips.

Nice picture.Don't know what its doing in this discussion though.
AIM120 C is totally different class of Missile that why I compared MICA to AIM 120A/B.
Let me tell you a little about their roles
MICA is short range high hit probability missile. Its range around 50 km but these things are always classified.
AIM 120A is similar to MICA that is why I compared the two.
Now AIM 120 C is long range low hit probability missile.Cant compare it with MICA/
Also can you avoid using words like "idiot" in a discussion ? Makes me feel like I am wasting my time with a child. Thanks

FACT | UAE still needs to sell their mirages even if they don't buy Rafales. They are not satisfied with Rafale's performance an have refused to pay for R&D for an upgraded variant already.

How will they sell without French support ?

A | MICA is not 'critical' to PAF
B | If such a deal goes through, it won't be signed till we have the source codes for integrating them on our fleet.

You still havent answered my question though ?
Why buy the inferior MICA when the superior AMRAAM is already integrated and available at HALF price ?
Why o why o why.

India only has leverage till they are locked in the Rafale deal. If IAF plays hardball with Dassault over these Mirages the Dassault would demand favourable terms on IAF's Rafale deal which in turn would harm IAF's pocket. We buy them or not, we get to screw IAF anyway.

No I strongly disagree.India and France are locked in a strategic partnership that goes way beyond Rafale deal.
Just to give an example did you know IN has been offred the use of French island territories spread across the globe ?
And of course India will pay a little moolah to get Pakistan from getting some very good planes.
I am sure Pakistan would have liked to be in India's position than India to be in Pakistan's.

 

[T-123456]

Lets see

You should sponsor JF-17s for Azerbaijan but pay us back in T-129Bs. Good old barter

They rather buy Russian and dont listen to big brother.
The T-129Bs,will take at least 6 years(60/100 for us),so patience you will get some for sure.
Btw,dont forget the n.k.s

 

[Kompromat]

If UAE does not buy Rafale, they wont be able to sell the Mirage 2k9 and hence still be able to use the MICA.Jesus

Wrong - they need to replace those Mirages with or without Rafale. Since they just ordered a fleet of Block-61 the Rafale deal is all but dead.

Nice picture.Don't know what its doing in this discussion though.
AIM120 C is totally different class of Missile that why I compared MICA to AIM 120A/B.
Let me tell you a little about their roles
MICA is short range high hit probability missile. Its range around 50 km but these things are always classified.
AIM 120A is similar to MICA that is why I compared the two.
Now AIM 120 C is long range low hit probability missile.Cant compare it with MICA/
Also can you avoid using words like "idiot" in a discussion ? Makes me feel like I am wasting my time with a child. Thanks

AIM-120 Family, has a higher hit probability than all other BVRAAMs on the market and there is actual combat record to prove it, unlike MICA. I didn't call you an idiot, i just find your claims about MICA>AIM-9X - MICA> AIM-120C to be idiotic, simply because they are.

How will they sell without French support ?

They will sell with the full support from France. The French won't miss out on Pakistani business when it comes to re-selling those jets because they would have to buy them from UAE first and then find a customer otherwise to please India, which is not happening. The only customer that would be left is Egypt which is buying MIG-35s and F-16 Block-52, so its highly unlikely that they will go for more Mirages.

You still havent answered my question though ?
Why buy the inferior MICA when the superior AMRAAM is already integrated and available at HALF price ?
Why o why o why.

I answered your question in my first reply. The MICA is not critical, however if it becomes surplus, we may buy it to keep the M2k-9 package as it is. Our first priority would be to acquire those 500 rounds of Black Shaheen ALCMs.

No I strongly disagree.India and France are locked in a strategic partnership that goes way beyond Rafale deal.
Just to give an example did you know IN has been offred the use of French island territories spread across the globe ?
And of course India will pay a little moolah to get Pakistan from getting some very good planes.
I am sure Pakistan would have liked to be in India's position than India to be in Pakistan's.

That is just your wish you are trying to state as a fact. The French are known for selling to both sides and will continue to do so as per the norms of the arms business.

 

[greatone]

snip

I do not wish to discuss this any more since I find it tedious to correct your obtuse argument again and again.
Intelligent readers here will make out BS from truth.

Adios.

 

[ziaulislam]

a few facts:
it doesnt seem that pakistan will be going fro mirage200o, they will rather pruse F-16s
second, indeed France doesnt care and may sell to both sides but india has alot of business yet to come, especially the 8 billion dollar sub deal...

 

[danger007]

Wrong - they need to replace those Mirages with or without Rafale. Since they just ordered a fleet of Block-61 the Rafale deal is all but dead.



AIM-120 Family, has a higher hit probability than all other BVRAAMs on the market and there is actual combat record to prove it, unlike MICA. I didn't call you an idiot, i just find your claims about MICA>AIM-9X - MICA> AIM-120C to be idiotic, simply because they are.



They will sell with the full support from France. The French won't miss out on Pakistani business when it comes to re-selling those jets because they would have to buy them from UAE first and then find a customer otherwise to please India, which is not happening. The only customer that would be left is Egypt which is buying MIG-35s and F-16 Block-52, so its highly unlikely that they will go for more Mirages.



I answered your question in my first reply. The MICA is not critical, however if it becomes surplus, we may buy it to keep the M2k-9 package as it is. Our first priority would be to acquire those 500 rounds of Black Shaheen ALCMs.



That is just your wish you are trying to state as a fact. The French are known for selling to both sides and will continue to do so as per the norms of the arms business.

Bro you think French pleased to do business with Pakistan by ignoring India's interest ... you are quite wrong French are desperate to sign the 20B $ deal even there are some hiccups. . quite amusing isn't it... UAE will sell those jets... can pakistan afford that cost??? no ... UAE need to provide funds for it... I don't see any advantage by selling those jets to Pakistan. .. French will never allow Pak to integrate MICA in other platforms. .. Both French and India locked in Rafale deal... If India abandoned those deal (it will not happen for sure)... Rafale will be a dead bird... what if French took those MICA instead making India anger ...

a few facts:
it doesnt seem that pakistan will be going fro mirage200o, they will rather pruse F-16s
second, indeed France doesnt care and may sell to both sides but india has alot of business yet to come, especially the 8 billion dollar sub deal...

they will care ... by allowing UAE to sell M2K to Pak ... they will not benefit much... BUT Rafale and Sub deals boost their economy create more jobs...

 

[kaykay]

Bro you think French pleased to do business with Pakistan by ignoring India's interest ... you are quite wrong French are desperate to sign the 20B $ deal even there are some hiccups. . quite amusing isn't it... UAE will sell those jets... can pakistan afford that cost??? no ... UAE need to provide funds for it... I don't see any advantage by selling those jets to Pakistan. .. French will never allow Pak to integrate MICA in other platforms. .. Both French and India locked in Rafale deal... If India abandoned those deal (it will not happen for sure)... Rafale will be a dead bird... what if French took those MICA instead making India anger ...


they will care ... by allowing UAE to sell M2K to Pak ... they will not benefit much... BUT Rafale and Sub deals boost their economy create more jobs...

not just Rafale and follow on sub deal but they are also participating in our requirement of 4 lhds. mistral seems favorite now. all these deals are above 5 billion dollar deals. French just can't ignore these deals for some TINY deals with other countries no matter what people says.
PS. let me tell you more, French DCNS has already collobrated with pipavav shipyard for 4 LHD deal.

 

[Storm Force]

Aeronaut.

Regardinmg PAF intergrating MICA into Thunder.

Way too rich/expensive for pakistani pockets. You tried this 2 years ago the french quoted over $1.5 billion for the radars EW suites and weapons for just 50 block one Thunders.

You guys walked away went for SD10 only

Regarding getting SURPLUS UAE weapons. THEY will cost dollars ....

EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR PAF but you need DOLLARS and lots of it.

No freebies im afraid.

And it will take time ...

If it costs wat i think AS GOOD as the Mirage2000-9 IS .. your better going for F16 even if the threat of USA sanction hangs over your heads constantly

 

[danger007]

I do not wish to discuss this any more since I find it tedious to correct your obtuse argument again and again.
Intelligent readers here will make out BS from truth.

Adios.

Indian pressure on France stopped Thunder Upgrade WIKI leaks Very | Page 2

 

[The SC]

This is why it will be a great addition to PAF:

But the Mirage 2000-9 is far from being obsolete or past its prime and it has been estimated that $3.4 billion of the $9.9 billion spent by the UAE has been used on the Mirage 2000-9 series (with $6.5 billion spent on the Block 60 F-16). The UAE, therefore, naturally expects to realise a good price for these versatile, modern and highly capable strike fighters.

Though the UAE’s first batch of 36 Mirage 2000s were purchased in 1986, 30 survivors have been extensively refurbished and then upgraded – bringing them to the same standard as the 32 new Mirage 2000-9s ordered in 1998 under the so-called Bader 21 purchase agreement and delivered from 2003. As such, all surviving UAE Air Force and Air Defence Mirage 2000s now share the same 21st Century 2000-9 configuration and, thus, represent the top of the Mirage 2000 evolutionary tree.

The Mirage 2000-9 incorporates state-of-the-art technologies and advanced capabilities that the basic Mirage 2000 lacks, many of which were incorporated as a direct result of experience gained by Dassault during the development of the Rafale, and which may be viewed as ‘Rafale technology’, with similar modular avionics, an LCD glass cockpit with full night vision goggles compatibility, and advanced sensors and systems.

At the core of the Mirage 2000-9’s navigation and attack system is a Thales-and Dassault Aviation-developed modular data processing unit (MDPU) that is similar to that used by the Rafale. This serves as the mission computer, manages the navigation and attack system, controls the cockpit display system and generates symbology for the head-up display (HUD) and head-down displays (HDDs). As a result, the Mirage 2000-9 is claimed to enjoy a world-beating, highly intuitive man-machine interface.

Though the Mirage 2000-9 is externally very similar to the original Mirage 2000C fighter, it actually represents the culmination of several stages of technical advance. The Mirage 2000-5 was developed as a private venture multi-role update of the fighter Mirage 2000 with a new Thales RDY multimode radar, a wide-angle HUD, hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls, and with provision for a Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod.

A two-seat Mirage 2000B was extensively upgraded and modified to serve as the first Mirage 2000-5 prototype, making its maiden flight on October 24 1990. Thirty-seven existing Armée de l’Air Mirage 2000s were upgraded to 2000-5F standards, becoming operational in 2000.

The aircraft was further upgraded for export customers as the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2. This added RDY-2 radar with enhanced air-to-ground capabilities. The Mk 2 also gained a new Thales Totem 3000 ring laser gyro IN/GPS, an ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and a Samir DDM missile warning system, higher resolution colour cockpit displays, and provision for a Topsight helmet-mounted display.

Compared to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2, the UAE’s -9 variant incorporates what Dassault coyly refers to as “additional operating capabilities specified by the UAE AF & AD”, and which include enhanced survivability and much-improved long-range stand-off air-to-ground capabilities.

With the USA unwilling to facilitate the integration of certain local weapons on aircraft that it supplies to the UAE, to avoid upsetting certain regional sensitivities, it has been the Mirage 2000 that has acted as the delivery platform for the UAE’s Black Shaheen cruise missile (a derivative of the MBDA Apache/SCALP/Storm Shadow) and the MBDA Al Hakim family of rocket-boosted LGBs. The original UAE Mirage 2000EAD was equipped with a ‘day-only’ ATLIS II laser targeting pod, but the Mirage 2000-9 was provided with a new Shehab laser designation pod – with a Nahar navigation FLIR in the dedicated pylon used to attach the Shehab pod to the aircraft.

The Mirage 2000-9 has a unique new IMEWS electronic warfare and countermeasures system. IMEWS was designed and developed by Thales, Elettronica and MBDA to UAE Air Force and Air Defence requirements.

The aircraft also has a new Thales communication, navigation, identification (CNI) suite, with a frequency-agile Thomrad V/UHF secure voice radio system, and an LU2 tactical datalink.

The Mirage 2000-9 is powered by the latest version of the SNECMA M53-P2 turbofan, incorporating FADEC and a sophisticated autothrottle (which provides automatic control of engine speed to maintain whatever speed is selected by the pilot).

Development of the Mirage 2000-9 was spread over five years and was divided into two distinct weapon delivery and navigation system standards, known as SAD91 and SAD92. Deliveries of 32 new-build aircraft to SAD91 standards began at the end of April 2003 and continued until early 2004.

Retrofitting of the UAE’s surviving 30 Mirage 2000EAD/RAD/DADs to the new standard was jointly undertaken by French specialists based in Paris , and at the Istres Flight Test Centre and by UAE Air Force & Air Defence (AF & AD) staff at Al Dhafra. The first two of these aircraft were upgraded in Istres , France , between 2001 and 2003, with the remaining 28 undergoing upgrade at Al Dhafra. The conversion consisted of a major overhaul and the avionics/equipment retrofit, undertaken simultaneously. The programme ran until 2007.

The Mirage 2000-9 programme provided the UAE AF & AD with invaluable experience and allowed the UAE to establish in-country software development, weapon integration, test and evaluation capabilities.

If the country’s planned Rafale purchase goes ahead, the UAE’s surplus fleet of Mirage 2000-9s would represent an extremely potent fighter for any buyer, far more modern and far more capable than the simple Mirage 2000 name might suggest, and quite probably available at a bargain price.

www.arabianaerospace.aero/one-careful-owner-why-mirage-sale-might-be-no-illusion.html


For the cost, most people are just speculating, some came up with the Idea of 2.5 billion $ for the whole package, based on a 20 million $ for each plane and a billion $ for armaments. That is based on the deal with France as an exchange in the pricing of the Rafale, it was made to get the maximum from the deal. Now that that deal seams to be gone, The UAE will settle for a lesser amount than with France, since the latter was trying to get the maximum profit for its Rafales too.
Pakistan seems to be the number one candidate to acquire them, for many reasons, first of which, these are well maintained very capable fighters, and 4 squadrons of them. Next there are no F-16s available in these numbers, not to talk about the fact that their cost and the cost of MLUing them should be higher than the acquisition of the M2K-9s.
My own speculation is that Pakistan can get the whole package including the armaments for less than1.5 billion$. If one counts the cost of 80 to 90 new JF-17 for 15 to 17 million each (excluding the armaments), than one can see that this deal would be indeed a valuable one to some extent; because of the sophisticated components one finds in M2K-9 and that one can read in the above article.
It is still a difficult choice, but the lower the price is for the M2K-9s, the more chances are For Pakistan to purchase them. including their armament systems in a wholesale deal. And since there are no tenders for used weapons sales, the UAE can chose to whom it may sell them to.
In my own opinion this is a go ahead deal if it is around 1 billion $.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

If it costs wat i think AS GOOD as the Mirage2000-9 IS .. your better going for F16 even if the threat of USA sanction hangs over your heads constantly

you do know that PAF operates big chunk of Arab's air force fleet meaning M2k9 can be integrated easily in PAF fleet. PAF was willing to pay France the high cost for Thunder upgrade and that money can go towards buying M2k9 from UAE.

 

[Storm Force]

Nobody operates anybodies fleet.

The Arab air forces have service crews and pilots from both the UK and USA.

Nothing to do with Pakistan you guys can't provide the expertise in maintaing advanced fighters from USA and europe

 

[Storm Force]

In Reply to THE SC

And your statement

My own speculation is that Pakistan can get the whole package including the armaments for less than1.5 billion$. If one counts the cost of 80 to 90 new JF-17 for 15 to 17 million each (excluding the armaments), than one can see that this deal would be indeed a valuable one to some extent; because of the sophisticated components one finds in M2K-9 and that one can read in the above article.
It is still a difficult choice, but the lower the price is for the M2K-9s, the more chances are For Pakistan to purchase them. including their armament systems in a wholesale deal. And since there are no tenders for used weapons sales, the UAE can chose to whom it may sell them to.
In my own opinion this is a go ahead deal if it is around 1 billion $.

When you consider India paid over $3 billion to upgrade 51 Mirage2000 Upgraded TO DASH 5 and with new suite of weapons including over 550 mica BVRS

The indians would pay happliy pay double the $1.5 BILLION you indicate that PAF would pay. for over 60 used Mirage 2000-9

especiall;y if THE MMRCA rafale is cancelled.[