Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[MastanKhan]

Dear Mk,

Sir, I am afraid that now this debate is taking a whole new turn towards matters pertaining to foreign policy.But I would bear with you unless we can conclude something.

UAE brought some 80 F-16 Block-60 at a staggering price. These are only F-16's in the world equipped with APG-80, Agile Beam AESA radars. You really think it was cost effective solution. Then, recently, KSA signed deal for Typhoons. how come that cost-effective. The prime threat faced by the entire ME is Israel and that certainly demands acquiring every top-notch aerial combat system from every available source. Now Israelis have the most potent air force in the region. Now, it is beyond my comprehension that how you established that the threat we are facing (IAF) is more challenging than that of faced by all Gulf countries? Here we must bear in mind that Pakistan and US are not DECLARED enemies of each other (yet), and if they come face to face, then mark my words, even 100+ latest mirages would never make any difference because the mutual numerical disparity between PAF and USAF would be still in USAF favour in complete sense!

Sir,

Please allow me to ask you now----what threat are the gulf countries facing from israel----did you just create one today---they have no beef with israel. The gulf countries are preparing for intrusion from iran---that was the concern last time the news was in the air----a threat from israel never was an issue---Israel has no beef with them---.

Solomon---can you shed some light over here---thank you.

Can't even wing it.

 

[SBD-3]

The heart of the JF 17 is the russian engine---which even with all the promises is still prone to sanctions in case of emergency---. The FC20 is awaiting a brand new engine to be cleared for flight operations----an un-certified engine at that-----chinese have a tradition of of flying with uncertified engines on their millitary aircraft----unlike their western counterparts---the chinese millitary engines are certified during actual in service operations----. I don't know if you know or understand about certification or not----or how many members on this board understand that part-----if you do---then good for you and dthere was no disrespect meant.

Sir MK, AFAIK the choice of going with RD-93 for JFT was 1) of course time and 2) better performance viz a viz WS-13 in certain aspects. While WS-13 delivered superior thurst and FDIC, it lagged in response time which was seen as a crucial performance parameter to compensate relatively low TWR. Initially PAF had plans to keep RD-93 as standard engine for JFT (but WS-13 have recently seemed to have caught the attention of PAF). I think PAF is also aware of the threat of possible sanctions and is apparently now pushing for licensed manufacturing at Kamra at Engine overhaul facility as the mirages are phased out (I dont remeber though whether is it WS-13 or RD Series). Anyways, we must admit that we dont live in a eutopian country which is blessed with 100 best science universities of the world, immense industrial base, high lever of Phd/educated class ratio, high engneers,Reserchers/million population ratio, highest R&D spending/GDP ratio. We have to live with what we are, a country with limited industrial base, low litracy rate, minute number of Phds, Average Science Universities. Dont you think given these facts what we have achieved is rather estonishing? If we have been able to get a platform 90% santions free as compared to 100% sanctioned ones within a decade, doesn't that signifies an achievement in itself? Look at Sweeds, French, Americans,Russians,Chinese how long have they been enegaged in an ever evolving aviation industry. How many generations of engneers have been consumed in achieveing current cutting edge modern technology? Pakistani engneers do deserve a hatz off for their capabilities and the fact that Pakistan has started its run in aviation arena with a decent 4th Gen evolving fighter.
Chinese engine industry has been rather over criticized IMHO, look at WS-13, how long it has been in JFT protoype in China, and how much reliability can be implied after considering the fact that almost everyday, the same prototype is making a stroie with new testing loads. Consider how risky it would sound to test a brand new engine on one engine fighter, and looking at the track record of WS-13, its nothing short than remarkable that the engine has displayed such reliability. For WS-10, Chinese came up with a smart and rather conservative choice, putting it in the back of a twin engine to let it mature with time, the current WS-10B version in J-10B doesn't only indicate that engine has matured, but also evolved. With new versions of WS series lined up...I dont see a point in considering Chinese Jet Engine Industry at the same point in early 2000s.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Dear MK,

Last I checked, intrusion into Gulf countries was not part of Iranian policy. They certainly have a big issue with Israel. Now can you please explain why Israel attack Iraq in 1982 and Syeria in 2007? Yeah, to destroy their nuclear potential before it could materialized. You claim again vindicates what I asked earlier that why on Earth, KSA is looking to acquire insanely expensive Trench-3 Typhoons if they have no issue with Israel? and I think you have learned about which country is looking for nuclear ambitions in the Gulf region which certainly is going to upset Israel. Iran is under sanctions since last 3 decades and it does not have any modern combat system to fight against UAE's F-16 E/F, KSA's F-15, Kuwait's F-18's, Qatar's Mirages!!

I had told you in previous post that now it is all going to foreign policy debate.

 

[SBD-3]

Dear Mk,

Sir, I am afraid that now this debate is taking a whole new turn towards matters pertaining to foreign policy.But I would bear with you unless we can conclude something.

UAE brought some 80 F-16 Block-60 at a staggering price. These are only F-16's in the world equipped with APG-80, Agile Beam AESA radars. You really think it was cost effective solution. Then, recently, KSA signed deal for Typhoons. how come that cost-effective. The prime threat faced by the entire ME is Israel and that certainly demands acquiring every top-notch aerial combat system from every available source. Now Israelis have the most potent air force in the region. Now, it is beyond my comprehension that how you established that the threat we are facing (IAF) is more challenging than that of faced by all Gulf countries? Here we must bear in mind that Pakistan and US are not DECLARED enemies of each other (yet), and if they come face to face, then mark my words, even 100+ latest mirages would never make any difference because the mutual numerical disparity between PAF and USAF would be still in USAF favour in complete sense!

Sir,

Please allow me to ask you now----what threat are the gulf countries facing from israel----did you just create one today---they have no beef with israel. The gulf countries are preparing for intrusion from iran---that was the concern last time the news was in the air----a threat from israel never was an issue---Israel has no beef with them---.

Solomon---can you shed some light over here---thank you.

Can't even wing it.

I endorse your point that GCC sees Iran as a rather more serious threat than Israel. But it can not be implied that they dont consider Israel a threat. KSA's push for slient eagle was not a result of Iran testing a Azarkash (F-5 with twin tails), you would also know who pushed KSA into possible 5th Gen road. Yes when it comes against Iran, GCC have common interests with Israel, but in stand alone. Israelis are seen as a threat in GCC

 

[Asian.Century]

UAE-AF force report. Mentions the 30 new F16s being order will replace the Mirage 2000s and Alan Warnes states that there is a lot of industry speculation that PAF will take these, if at minimal costs.

UAE has 62 and Qatar has 12 which will no doubt be retired in the next few years. If PAF took all 74 that would be 4 full strength squadrons.

 

[Basel]

UAE-AF force report. Mentions the 30 new F16s being order will replace the Mirage 2000s and Alan Warnes states that there is a lot of industry speculation that PAF will take these, if at minimal costs.
UAE has 62 and Qatar has 12 which will no doubt be retired in the next few years. If PAF took all 74 that would be 4 full strength squadrons.

I also have read that post by @Aeronaut about UAE M2K9s they can be immediate solution to replace aging M3s/5s but in long run don't look good solution as IAF will have more advance M2K5-2 available to them and spares can become an issue too. We are not going for J-10/FC-20 for now then why go for old M2K9s??

Can someone post capabilities what they can add to current fleet which we don't have or have in limited numbers?

 

[Viper0011.]

I also have read that post by @Aeronaut about UAE M2K9s they can be immediate solution to replace aging M3s/5s but in long run don't look good solution as IAF will have more advance M2K5-2 available to them and spares can become an issue too. We are not going for J-10/FC-20 for now then why go for old M2K9s??

You guys should acquire -16's in numbers (used ones), if you need to supplement or replace your Mirage / strike platform, these Mirage 2k's will be a very good option. You have support structure for both, the -16 and Mirages so this should be an easier integration.
This capability will give you 15-20 more years of capable strike platform and will probably save a few lives too due to reducing the dangers of flying obsolete current Mirages. Keep in mind, Dessault charges a LOT of money to upgrade these. So someone in the PAF needs to realize what or how much is worth spending. But just to upgrade existing Mirage fleet with BVR capable strike platform, this is actually a really good deal if it works out. Plus add Meteor and other top line armament you'll get. That would further diversify your weapons platforms such as in BVR's case, it'll be AMRAAM's, Meteor, etc, and SD-10. Not bad!

 

[Basel]

@orangzaib well said, are you sure that those M2k9s carry meteor?? they also able to carry storm shadows this may allow PAF good new capability in terms of strike and air defense.

 

[Kompromat]

You guys should acquire -16's in numbers (used ones), if you need to supplement or replace your Mirage / strike platform, these Mirage 2k's will be a very good option. You have support structure for both, the -16 and Mirages so this should be an easier integration.
This capability will give you 15-20 more years of capable strike platform and will probably save a few lives too due to reducing the dangers of flying obsolete current Mirages. Keep in mind, Dessault charges a LOT of money to upgrade these. So someone in the PAF needs to realize what or how much is worth spending. But just to upgrade existing Mirage fleet with BVR capable strike platform, this is actually a really good deal if it works out. Plus add Meteor and other top line armament you'll get. That would further diversify your weapons platforms such as in BVR's case, it'll be AMRAAM's, Meteor, etc, and SD-10. Not bad!

If it works out - it would partly be financed by Saudi Arabia (Most likely).

@Oscar - Would Black Shaheens (500 rounds) would become surplus, since UAE cannot integrate them on Desert Falcons?
If so, it would be a grab of the decade for PAF.

 

[Bilal.]

Wouldn't it require French approval for re-export? I really don't see this happening. We already have too much on our plate to integrate and operationalize.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

F-16 and Mirage-2000-9 will be a great combo for PAF. Dont think MK2-9 is going to be alien technology for PAF since PAF pretty much operates UAE air force.

 

[Storm Force]

Meteores bvr only arrive in 2018.. UAE mirages carry mica just like Indian modernised mirsges

 

[HariPrasad]

Rafale is not a proven fighter.......

So what?

SO as Sukhoi 35,30,37, PAKFA, F22.

 

[HariPrasad]

Mirage is a very potent plane.It can carry 5+ tons of payload, It can fly 2+ mach and dog fight like any anything.

 

[HariPrasad]

I know it will be 25 mill a piece, but take into account the weapons packages PAF have to purchase and avionics packages.
total cost could be anywhere between $2-3 billion. PAF shouldn't go for any other 4th gen platforms then what is already planned.

app. 80 F-16 Block 52 new + MLU
150 JF-17 later blocks too
and FC-20

more then enough for our 4th gen needs. I agree that PAF with Mirage 2000-9s would be a good site but we don't need them or can afford to move money away from JF-17 and FC-20. besides after FC-20 are in service in decent numbers, time will come to search for 5th gen Chinese projects.

edit: possibility future embargoes/sanctions have to be taken into account, not to mention integrating the mirages with AWACS via datalink.

Actually, In my opinion you should choose between F 16 and Mirage 2000. Both planes are excellent multirole fighters. Better than other in some aspects where not so good in Others. If you want to cause a concern to your enemy, you should drop the plan to buy Chinese fighters.