"Pakistan - 5,000 years old" PMIK in China

[IndianGuy_]

Sorry but how does it matter ??

In the present, is Pakistan a nation that others would love to emulate ?? Has Pakistan developed a social, political and economic philosophy that can serve as guide to the rest of the world ??

Even little countries like Cuba have a better system than bigger countries like India and Pakistan.

@Indus Pakistan

Does ground reality matter though? If people in both countries are happy to be living in a 3rd world country but be able to one up each other on the basis of as trivial as this, they should be able to.

Living conditions dont really say much about a country as much as who's history is more glorified.

/s

 

[Yankee-stani]

Let’s try to be more constructive in facing the onslaught of challenges we face as Pakistanis and also Muslims.

For this, we need to stand united, brother to brother, and use all means to combat the negative propaganda against us.

For far too long, this propaganda has been furthered that we are an artificial nation, by many enemies/rivals such as India, Afghan secular nationalists, Iranians, Arabs, and the West.

By recovering our past history, we seek to counter this false narratives and show that our identity, geographical and cultural, is truly distinct in the world.

Take a look, for example, at our culture which is far closer to Turkey than any other nation. We don’t have much in common with India at all.

We are very much aliens to each other, and there is a racial component in this along with the obvious religious differences.[/QUOTE]

Thats what I was saying prior every neighboring states besides the PRC has a expansionist policy or some high arrogance that we are a "fake country" how many Indian, Iranian,Arab,and some Turkish trolls here will use the same excuse its our history use to counter those trolls and sadly academia in the international arena has been co-opted by the Brahmin Indian class who twists historical narratives of South Asia look at folks like Rabzaib Khan he is geneologists I use to read his blog Brown Pundits its suppose to be a blog where Indian, Pakistani and Bengalis to write their spin on events there or about culture almost all the Pakistani academics there are self haters and more liberal in leaning so our narratives has been tainted cause of lack of identity building and govt failing to use history against expansionist Indians

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

If you try to spend that much effort on thinking and reason, you can do much better for yourself and for our society. But it is generally observed that liberal mafia and ethnic nationalist lack intellectual capacity to reason.

Religion and Islam is dead in Pakistan. We may as well bring in nationalism. It's far more constructive.

 

[Mutakalim]

Let’s try to be more constructive in facing the onslaught of challenges we face as Pakistanis and also Muslims.

For this, we need to stand united, brother to brother, and use all means to combat the negative propaganda against us.

Agreed. However, we need to face and confront the home grown challenge and "Fitnah" of extreme ethnic nationalism and secularism. These two ideologies have created enough traitors in our ranks that we cannot close our eyes. From Altaf Hussain to Hussain Haqqani, from Sindhi nationalist to likes of PTM and ANP and from Sheikh Abdullah to Abul Ghaffar Khan. All of these traitors were product of secularist thought. All of them used to believe in ethnic nationalism. They also wanted to create an identity for themselves on the basis of race, colour and cast.

For far too long, this propaganda has been furthered that we are an artificial nation, by many enemies/rivals such as India, Afghan secular nationalists, Iranians, Arabs, and the West.

By recovering our past history, we seek to counter this false narratives and show that our identity, geographical and cultural, is truly distinct in the world.

Take a look, for example, at our culture which is far closer to Turkey than any other nation. We don’t have much in common with India at all.

We are very much aliens to each other, and there is a racial component in this along with the obvious religious differences.

I dont have any trouble in accepting the fact that we are an amalgamation of different ethnic nationalities. Our state was not created on the basis of a distinct ethnic makeup. We are existing as a nation because we rejected this stupid narrative that nations are formed on the basis of ethnicity. I have to quote Iqbal here, as he rejected this narrative in a very bold and direct manner:

Iss Dour Mein Mai Aur Hai, Jaam Aur Hai Jam Aur
Saqi Ne Bina Ki Rawish-e-Lutf-o-Sitam Aur

In this age the wine, the cup, even Jam is different
The cup‐bearer started different ways of grace and tyranny

Muslim Ne Bhi Tameer Kiya Apna Haram Aur
Tehzeeb Ke Azar Ne Tarshawaye Sanam Aur

The Muslim also constructed a different harem of his own
The Azar of civilization made different idols of his own

In Taza Khudaon Mein Bara Sub Se Watan Hai
Jo Pairhan Iss Ka Hai, Woh Mazhab Ka Kafan Hai

Country, is the biggest among these new gods!
What is its shirt is the shroud of Deen (Religion)

Ye But Ke Tarashida-e-Tehzeeb-e-Nawi Hai
Gharatgar-e-Kashana-e-Deen-e-Nabwi Hai

This idol which is the product of the new civilization
Is the plunderer of the structure of the Holy Prophet’s Deen (Religion)

Bazu Tera Touheed Ki Quwwat Se Qawi Hai
Islam Tera Dais Hai, Tu Mustafavi Hai

Your arm is enforced with the strength of the Divine Unity
You are the followers of Mustafa, your country is Islam

Nazzara-e-Dairina Zamane Ko Dikha De
Ae Mustafavi Khak Mein Iss Butt Ko Mila De!

You should show the old panorama to the world
O Mustafaa’s follower! You should destroy this idol

Hai Tark-e-Watan Sunnat-e-Mehboob (S.A.W.)-e-Elahi
De Tu Bhi Nabuwwat Ki Sadaqat Pe Gawahi

Renouncing the country is the way of the God’s Beloved (PBUH)
You should also testify to the Prophethood’s Truth by similar action

Aqwam Mein Makhlooq-e-Khuda Batti Hai Iss Se
Qoumiat-e-Islam Ki Jar Katti Hai Iss Se

God’s creation is unjustly divided among nations by it
The Islamic concept of nationality is uprooted by it

In another of his masterpiece he attacked tenaciously on one of the most influential and respected scholar of his time Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madni. The same Madni who then adopted Hindustan over Pakistan by accepting ethnicity as the basis of nationality. Can I ask the Question: what is the difference between Hussain Ahmad Madni and a Pakistani who is trying to make ethnic makeup as the basis of nationality?

The East still does not know the mysteries of this Religion, otherwise
From Deoband, Hussain Ahmad! What a most strange person he is-
Crying from the pulpit that the (Muslim) community is from the nation!
Unaware as he is of the rank of Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam the Arabian
Reach, Mustafa, the Chosen One, for in this Religion 'everything is he'
If you do not reach him, everything is like Abu Lahab (i.e. satanic, evil)

The point needs to be heavily understood that we are not a nation because we have some distinct ethnic makeup, or we all belong to a same race or tribe. Our forefathers came from all across the world, from Arabia to Central Asia, from east India to Persia and from Afghanistan to Anatolia. As you yourself mentioned that our culture has more resemblance to turkey then any other neighbouring country. Moreover, the original settlers of Indus plain are few among us. Majority of our forefathers came from different regions of the world. Therefore, how can a Moghul be able to recover his history from Indus Plain, how can a tribe which originally came from Persia be able to recover his history from Indus plain? How can a Muhajir from Gangatic plain or UP be able to recover his history from Indus plain? Why our Mohajir brothers left their ancestral homes and joined us? For what cause, for what purpose? In essence, we are a nation of different ethnic makeups, races, tribes, colours and languages.

Our identity is not linked with geography, culture, race or ethnicity. Our identity as a nation is only linked with Islam. Whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, but the truth is that we are linked with each other only due to Islam. We are a nation because we all believe in the same ideology. We are a nation because we all bare witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah. We are a nation because we all bare witness that Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him and Upon all His followers) is the last messenger.

Please dont try to create false identities. These false identities of race, ethnicity and tribes have given us nothing. These false identities were behind the creation of movements like Sindhu Desh, Mohajir or Pukhton Tahafuz. Give up your false identity of race and come to the real identity of Islam. That is the essence of Pan Islamism.

Religion and Islam is dead in Pakistan. We may as well bring in nationalism. It's far more constructive.

I am sending thousand curses on your ethnic nationalism. And as far as death of religion goes:

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness. Quran 48:28

No Muslim can accept that Islam is dead. Sell this choran to infidels.

 

[POTTER]

Agreed. However, we need to face and confront the home grown challenge and "Fitnah" of extreme ethnic nationalism and secularism. These two ideologies have created enough traitors in our ranks that we cannot close our eyes. From Altaf Hussain to Hussain Haqqani, from Sindhi nationalist to likes of PTM and ANP and from Sheikh Abdullah to Abul Ghaffar Khan. All of these traitors were product of secularist thought. All of them believes in ethnic nationalism. They also wanted to create an identity for themselves on the basis of race, colour and cast.



I dont have any trouble accepting the fact that we are an amalgamation of different ethnic nationalities. Our state was not created on the basis of a distinct ethnic makeup. We are existing as a nation because we rejected this stupid narrative that nations are formed on the basis of ethnicity. I have to quote Iqbal here, as he rejected this narrative in a very bold and direct manner:

Iss Dour Mein Mai Aur Hai, Jaam Aur Hai Jam Aur
Saqi Ne Bina Ki Rawish-e-Lutf-o-Sitam Aur

In this age the wine, the cup, even Jam is different
The cup‐bearer started different ways of grace and tyranny

Muslim Ne Bhi Tameer Kiya Apna Haram Aur
Tehzeeb Ke Azar Ne Tarshawaye Sanam Aur

The Muslim also constructed a different harem of his own
The Azar of civilization made different idols of his own

In Taza Khudaon Mein Bara Sub Se Watan Hai
Jo Pairhan Iss Ka Hai, Woh Mazhab Ka Kafan Hai

Country, is the biggest among these new gods!
What is its shirt is the shroud of Deen (Religion)

Ye But Ke Tarashida-e-Tehzeeb-e-Nawi Hai
Gharatgar-e-Kashana-e-Deen-e-Nabwi Hai

This idol which is the product of the new civilization
Is the plunderer of the structure of the Holy Prophet’s Deen (Religion)

Bazu Tera Touheed Ki Quwwat Se Qawi Hai
Islam Tera Dais Hai, Tu Mustafavi Hai

Your arm is enforced with the strength of the Divine Unity
You are the followers of Mustafa, your country is Islam

Nazzara-e-Dairina Zamane Ko Dikha De
Ae Mustafavi Khak Mein Iss Butt Ko Mila De!

You should show the old panorama to the world
O Mustafaa’s follower! You should destroy this idol

Hai Tark-e-Watan Sunnat-e-Mehboob (S.A.W.)-e-Elahi
De Tu Bhi Nabuwwat Ki Sadaqat Pe Gawahi

Renouncing the country is the way of the God’s Beloved (PBUH)
You should also testify to the Prophethood’s Truth by similar action

Aqwam Mein Makhlooq-e-Khuda Batti Hai Iss Se
Qoumiat-e-Islam Ki Jar Katti Hai Iss Se

God’s creation is unjustly divided among nations by it
The Islamic concept of nationality is uprooted by it

In another of his masterpiece he attacked tenaciously on one of the most influential and respected scholar of his time Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madni. The same Madni who then adopted Hindustan over Pakistan by accepting ethnicity as the basis of nationality. Can I ask the Question: what is the difference between Hussain Ahmad Madni and some Pakistani who is trying to make ethnic makeup as the basis of nationality?

The East still does not know the mysteries of this Religion, otherwise
From Deoband, Hussain Ahmad! What a most strange person he is-
Crying from the pulpit that the (Muslim) community is from the nation!
Unaware as he is of the rank of Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam the Arabian
Reach, Mustafa, the Chosen One, for in this Religion 'everything is he'
If you do not reach him, everything is like Abu Lahab (i.e. satanic, evil)

The point needs to be heavily understood that we are not a nation because we have some distinct ethnic makeup, or we all belong to a same race or tribe. Our forefathers came from all across the world, from Arabia to Central Asia, from east India to Persia and from Afghanistan to Anatolia. As you yourself mentioned that our culture has more resemblance to turkey then any other neighbouring country. Moreover, the original settlers of Indus plain are few among us. Majority of our forefathers came from different regions of the world. Therefore, how can a Moghul recover his history from Indus Plain, how can a tribe which originally came from Persia be able to recover his history from Indus plain? How can a Muhajir from Gigantic plain or UP be able to recover his history from Indus plain? Why our Mohajir brothers left their ancestral homes and joined us? For what cause, for what purpose? In essence, we are a nation of different ethnic makeups, races, tribes, colours and languages.

Our identity is not linked with geography, culture, race and ethnicity. Our identity as a nation is only linked with Islam. Whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, but the truth is that we are linked with each other only due to Islam. We are a nation because we all believe in the same ideology. We are a nation because we all bare witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah. We are a nation because we all bare witness that Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him and Upon all His followers) is the last messenger.

Please dont try to create false identities. These false identities of race, ethnicity and tribes have given us nothing. These false identities were behind the creation of movements like Sindhu Desh, Mohajir or Pukhton Tahafuz. Give up your false identity of race and come to the real identity of Islam. That is the essence of Pan Islamism.



I am sending thousand curses on your ethnic nationalism. And as far as death of religion goes:

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness. Quran 48:28

No Muslim can accept that Islam is dead. Sell this choran to infidels.

BEAUTIFUL ....

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Agreed. However, we need to face and confront the home grown challenge and "Fitnah" of extreme ethnic nationalism and secularism. These two ideologies have created enough traitors in our ranks that we cannot close our eyes. From Altaf Hussain to Hussain Haqqani, from Sindhi nationalist to likes of PTM and ANP and from Sheikh Abdullah to Abul Ghaffar Khan. All of these traitors were product of secularist thought. All of them believes in ethnic nationalism. They also wanted to create an identity for themselves on the basis of race, colour and cast.



I dont have any trouble accepting the fact that we are an amalgamation of different ethnic nationalities. Our state was not created on the basis of a distinct ethnic makeup. We are existing as a nation because we rejected this stupid narrative that nations are formed on the basis of ethnicity. I have to quote Iqbal here, as he rejected this narrative in a very bold and direct manner:

Iss Dour Mein Mai Aur Hai, Jaam Aur Hai Jam Aur
Saqi Ne Bina Ki Rawish-e-Lutf-o-Sitam Aur

In this age the wine, the cup, even Jam is different
The cup‐bearer started different ways of grace and tyranny

Muslim Ne Bhi Tameer Kiya Apna Haram Aur
Tehzeeb Ke Azar Ne Tarshawaye Sanam Aur

The Muslim also constructed a different harem of his own
The Azar of civilization made different idols of his own

In Taza Khudaon Mein Bara Sub Se Watan Hai
Jo Pairhan Iss Ka Hai, Woh Mazhab Ka Kafan Hai

Country, is the biggest among these new gods!
What is its shirt is the shroud of Deen (Religion)

Ye But Ke Tarashida-e-Tehzeeb-e-Nawi Hai
Gharatgar-e-Kashana-e-Deen-e-Nabwi Hai

This idol which is the product of the new civilization
Is the plunderer of the structure of the Holy Prophet’s Deen (Religion)

Bazu Tera Touheed Ki Quwwat Se Qawi Hai
Islam Tera Dais Hai, Tu Mustafavi Hai

Your arm is enforced with the strength of the Divine Unity
You are the followers of Mustafa, your country is Islam

Nazzara-e-Dairina Zamane Ko Dikha De
Ae Mustafavi Khak Mein Iss Butt Ko Mila De!

You should show the old panorama to the world
O Mustafaa’s follower! You should destroy this idol

Hai Tark-e-Watan Sunnat-e-Mehboob (S.A.W.)-e-Elahi
De Tu Bhi Nabuwwat Ki Sadaqat Pe Gawahi

Renouncing the country is the way of the God’s Beloved (PBUH)
You should also testify to the Prophethood’s Truth by similar action

Aqwam Mein Makhlooq-e-Khuda Batti Hai Iss Se
Qoumiat-e-Islam Ki Jar Katti Hai Iss Se

God’s creation is unjustly divided among nations by it
The Islamic concept of nationality is uprooted by it

In another of his masterpiece he attacked tenaciously on one of the most influential and respected scholar of his time Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madni. The same Madni who then adopted Hindustan over Pakistan by accepting ethnicity as the basis of nationality. Can I ask the Question: what is the difference between Hussain Ahmad Madni and some Pakistani who is trying to make ethnic makeup as the basis of nationality?

The East still does not know the mysteries of this Religion, otherwise
From Deoband, Hussain Ahmad! What a most strange person he is-
Crying from the pulpit that the (Muslim) community is from the nation!
Unaware as he is of the rank of Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam the Arabian
Reach, Mustafa, the Chosen One, for in this Religion 'everything is he'
If you do not reach him, everything is like Abu Lahab (i.e. satanic, evil)

The point needs to be heavily understood that we are not a nation because we have some distinct ethnic makeup, or we all belong to a same race or tribe. Our forefathers came from all across the world, from Arabia to Central Asia, from east India to Persia and from Afghanistan to Anatolia. As you yourself mentioned that our culture has more resemblance to turkey then any other neighbouring country. Moreover, the original settlers of Indus plain are few among us. Majority of our forefathers came from different regions of the world. Therefore, how can a Moghul recover his history from Indus Plain, how can a tribe which originally came from Persia be able to recover his history from Indus plain? How can a Muhajir from Gigantic plain or UP be able to recover his history from Indus plain? Why our Mohajir brothers left their ancestral homes and joined us? For what cause, for what purpose? In essence, we are a nation of different ethnic makeups, races, tribes, colours and languages.

Our identity is not linked with geography, culture, race and ethnicity. Our identity as a nation is only linked with Islam. Whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, but the truth is that we are linked with each other only due to Islam. We are a nation because we all believe in the same ideology. We are a nation because we all bare witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah. We are a nation because we all bare witness that Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him and Upon all His followers) is the last messenger.

Please dont try to create false identities. These false identities of race, ethnicity and tribes have given us nothing. These false identities were behind the creation of movements like Sindhu Desh, Mohajir or Pukhton Tahafuz. Give up your false identity of race and come to the real identity of Islam. That is the essence of Pan Islamism.



I am sending thousand curses on your ethnic nationalism. And as far as death of religion goes:

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness. Quran 48:28

No Muslim can accept that Islam is dead. Sell this choran to infidels.

Islam in itself is not dead but Islam IN Pakistan is dead. In reality, most Pakistanis are no longer religious or care about Islam. That is the reality. Gulfi Arabs have been lie this for a long time.

 

[Mutakalim]

Islam in itself is not dead but Islam IN Pakistan is dead. In reality, most Pakistanis are no longer religious or care about Islam. That is the reality. Gulfi Arabs have been lie this for a long time.

Islam is dead in Pakistan and still you people have not been able to repeal all Islamic laws from the constitution and CRPC. Dont know in which Pakistan are you living, but Pakistanis still love Islam, Muslim Ummah and are most religious people in the entire world.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Islam is dead in Pakistan and still you people have not been able to repeal all Islamic laws from the constitution and CRPC. Dont know in which Pakistan are you living, but Pakistanis still love Islam, Muslim Ummah and are most religious people in the entire world.

If they REALLY loved Islam, people like zardari and sharif would not have existed or at the very least not been voted in by the Pakistani public. Islam is not just a religion it is an altruistic state of mind.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Agreed. However, we need to face and confront the home grown challenge and "Fitnah" of extreme ethnic nationalism and secularism. These two ideologies have created enough traitors in our ranks that we cannot close our eyes. From Altaf Hussain to Hussain Haqqani, from Sindhi nationalist to likes of PTM and ANP and from Sheikh Abdullah to Abul Ghaffar Khan. All of these traitors were product of secularist thought. All of them used to believe in ethnic nationalism. They also wanted to create an identity for themselves on the basis of race, colour and cast.



I dont have any trouble in accepting the fact that we are an amalgamation of different ethnic nationalities. Our state was not created on the basis of a distinct ethnic makeup. We are existing as a nation because we rejected this stupid narrative that nations are formed on the basis of ethnicity. I have to quote Iqbal here, as he rejected this narrative in a very bold and direct manner:

Iss Dour Mein Mai Aur Hai, Jaam Aur Hai Jam Aur
Saqi Ne Bina Ki Rawish-e-Lutf-o-Sitam Aur

In this age the wine, the cup, even Jam is different
The cup‐bearer started different ways of grace and tyranny

Muslim Ne Bhi Tameer Kiya Apna Haram Aur
Tehzeeb Ke Azar Ne Tarshawaye Sanam Aur

The Muslim also constructed a different harem of his own
The Azar of civilization made different idols of his own

In Taza Khudaon Mein Bara Sub Se Watan Hai
Jo Pairhan Iss Ka Hai, Woh Mazhab Ka Kafan Hai

Country, is the biggest among these new gods!
What is its shirt is the shroud of Deen (Religion)

Ye But Ke Tarashida-e-Tehzeeb-e-Nawi Hai
Gharatgar-e-Kashana-e-Deen-e-Nabwi Hai

This idol which is the product of the new civilization
Is the plunderer of the structure of the Holy Prophet’s Deen (Religion)

Bazu Tera Touheed Ki Quwwat Se Qawi Hai
Islam Tera Dais Hai, Tu Mustafavi Hai

Your arm is enforced with the strength of the Divine Unity
You are the followers of Mustafa, your country is Islam

Nazzara-e-Dairina Zamane Ko Dikha De
Ae Mustafavi Khak Mein Iss Butt Ko Mila De!

You should show the old panorama to the world
O Mustafaa’s follower! You should destroy this idol

Hai Tark-e-Watan Sunnat-e-Mehboob (S.A.W.)-e-Elahi
De Tu Bhi Nabuwwat Ki Sadaqat Pe Gawahi

Renouncing the country is the way of the God’s Beloved (PBUH)
You should also testify to the Prophethood’s Truth by similar action

Aqwam Mein Makhlooq-e-Khuda Batti Hai Iss Se
Qoumiat-e-Islam Ki Jar Katti Hai Iss Se

God’s creation is unjustly divided among nations by it
The Islamic concept of nationality is uprooted by it

In another of his masterpiece he attacked tenaciously on one of the most influential and respected scholar of his time Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madni. The same Madni who then adopted Hindustan over Pakistan by accepting ethnicity as the basis of nationality. Can I ask the Question: what is the difference between Hussain Ahmad Madni and a Pakistani who is trying to make ethnic makeup as the basis of nationality?

The East still does not know the mysteries of this Religion, otherwise
From Deoband, Hussain Ahmad! What a most strange person he is-
Crying from the pulpit that the (Muslim) community is from the nation!
Unaware as he is of the rank of Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam the Arabian
Reach, Mustafa, the Chosen One, for in this Religion 'everything is he'
If you do not reach him, everything is like Abu Lahab (i.e. satanic, evil)

The point needs to be heavily understood that we are not a nation because we have some distinct ethnic makeup, or we all belong to a same race or tribe. Our forefathers came from all across the world, from Arabia to Central Asia, from east India to Persia and from Afghanistan to Anatolia. As you yourself mentioned that our culture has more resemblance to turkey then any other neighbouring country. Moreover, the original settlers of Indus plain are few among us. Majority of our forefathers came from different regions of the world. Therefore, how can a Moghul be able to recover his history from Indus Plain, how can a tribe which originally came from Persia be able to recover his history from Indus plain? How can a Muhajir from Gangatic plain or UP be able to recover his history from Indus plain? Why our Mohajir brothers left their ancestral homes and joined us? For what cause, for what purpose? In essence, we are a nation of different ethnic makeups, races, tribes, colours and languages.

Our identity is not linked with geography, culture, race or ethnicity. Our identity as a nation is only linked with Islam. Whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, but the truth is that we are linked with each other only due to Islam. We are a nation because we all believe in the same ideology. We are a nation because we all bare witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah. We are a nation because we all bare witness that Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him and Upon all His followers) is the last messenger.

Please dont try to create false identities. These false identities of race, ethnicity and tribes have given us nothing. These false identities were behind the creation of movements like Sindhu Desh, Mohajir or Pukhton Tahafuz. Give up your false identity of race and come to the real identity of Islam. That is the essence of Pan Islamism.



I am sending thousand curses on your ethnic nationalism. And as far as death of religion goes:

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness. Quran 48:28

No Muslim can accept that Islam is dead. Sell this choran to infidels.

Great post. I can’t disagree with anything you have written here.

Let’s keep this discussion at this level and stay away from divisions.

Secular nationalism is indeed a poison which has caused untold suffering on the world, and liberalism has unraveled the foundations of society in the name of freedom.

However, equally dangerous are religious extremism, the type seen in Khawarij (Daesh) and radical Salafism (rejectors of Islamic tradition.) Now we also have the manipulative Barelvi extremists typified by Qadim Hussain Rizvi and political parasites in the guise of scholars such as Mullah Fazlu.

Concept of Qawm is an established one in Islam. In this we see Arabs, Persians, Turks have always functioned and been identified as different aqwaam.

The main issue with Partition was the division based on what defines a qawm.

Indian Muslims (JUI of Hind, Aligarh, Azad) and their allies posited that Pakistan was not a new qawm, hence haram.

Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah RAA, under the teachings of Allama Iqbal RAA, held the belief that Pakistanis (Kashmiris and eventually some Afghans included) were one qawm.

We had a different outlook than Indians, with a different racial composition, different view of history, and cultural traditions.

Not to mention Hadith where Rasool Pak saws clearly differentiated Sindh from Al-Hind.

We see that there is a historical precedent for our nation, older than even Islam.

Great scholars like Maulana Shabir Ahmad Usmani, and eventually Maulana Maududi, supported the idea of Pakistan.

From then on, Pakistan developed world renowned Islamic intelligentsia like Maulana Taqi and Rafi Usmani, Maulana Sami ul haq, Maulana Abdul-Samie, Dr. Israr Ahmad, etc.

We are a nation whose identity is firmly grounded in Islam, as that is the birth of our national identity, similar to how Turks were originally one people but have become an amalgamation of various newly converted Muslims from the crossroads of Eurasia.

Our ancestors brought Islam to our region, established separate garrison towns away from native pre-Islamic people, and preached Islam without compulsion to those who would listen. Slowly but surely the whole population converted of their own free will.

We established a new qawm on this land and changed its destiny forever, but we should not forget that we share the blood and DNA of the native inhabitants of this land as well (descendants of IVC and Iranic nomads.)

 

[W.11]

The Islamic terms Mushrikeen, Kuffar, Ahlul Kitab, Jahiliyyah are much more descriptive.

Most Christians today would consider Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism as pagan/heathen religions.

Judaism and Islam believe in the same one God as Christians, so they are out of that definition.

if christians are using it so why the muslims are using it for instance you. Muslims have word kafir, hindus also have 'unbeliever'', buddhists also have a word called ''unbeliever'' dont know its sanskrit original but each and every religion believes in 'unbelievers'', even zoroastrianism also called unbelievers as 'anaryan'' or something.

regards

 

[Numerous]

Secondly, the greatness of Indus valley Civilization is Total and absolute rubbish. 1000 curses on the civilization which used to worship million big deities and billion smaller ones. This Indus civilization was so great that it was ruled and subjugated by a small minority for almost 1000 years. Moreover, the Indus Valley Civilization's own ideology was so bankrupt that it adopted the foreign Arabian ideology. The conversion to foreign ideology was so complete and absolute that Indus valley Civilization has now emerged as a torch bearer of a foreign religion by producing thousands of great scholars and millions of Mujahideen.

It's not really bad to know bad one's history but I do see where you're coming from. The emphasis that is put on the indus valley civilization by some people on this forum goes into the weird obsessive realms. I really don't see this leading anywhere fruitful. It won't be long until some of these people start openly rejecting Islam and saying things like "Islam is an arab invention and we should stick to what our indus ancestors did". I mean some of them already attack mosques and Islamic rules & traditions so we're quite close to that stage. Some have strong faith so they won't fall into such actions but it's like a domino effect, one falls and then another falls and they don't all fall at the same time. Maybe a generation or two and we'll see these anti-Islamic things said more openly in society in conjugation with this indus valley civilisation pride thing. Iranians tend to push a similar narrative and we've seen how well their persian nationalism has worked out for their faith. Even the kurds, who've never had a nation and are the most nationalistic race I've encountered in real life, do a similar thing where they start looking pre-Islam for things to be proud of and we've all seen how that's worked out for their faith too. Pakistanis need to wisen up and learn from these other people - if you pursue things other than Islam then you will be humiliated more and more.

I don't know when the timeline of the supposed indus valley civilisation ends for these people but if it means just any civilisations or people which emerged in the area then you're pretty right on the fact about it being subjugated. Historically it was a land which has been repeatedly subjugated by foreigners (not that there's any shame in that, it's just at a location which seems to get conquered often). Greeks, persians, white huns, gupta empire are just a few that I can name off the top of my head who subjugated or ruled over parts of it. And after post Islam, we got conquered by plenty of central asian peoples too. I guess the propagators of Indus nationalism probably won't add that to the future indus textbooks though... Personally I don't think there's any shame in being conquered but just saying.

How unfortunate is the person who has been given the honour of Islam and yet he ignores it and pursues other things to be proud of. Living that kind of life is truly sad but unfortunately people won't realise that until they're actually dead and then it'll be too late.

 

[H. Dawary]

Agreed. However, we need to face and confront the home grown challenge and "Fitnah" of extreme ethnic nationalism and secularism. These two ideologies have created enough traitors in our ranks that we cannot close our eyes. From Altaf Hussain to Hussain Haqqani, from Sindhi nationalist to likes of PTM and ANP and from Sheikh Abdullah to Abul Ghaffar Khan. All of these traitors were product of secularist thought. All of them used to believe in ethnic nationalism. They also wanted to create an identity for themselves on the basis of race, colour and cast.



I dont have any trouble in accepting the fact that we are an amalgamation of different ethnic nationalities. Our state was not created on the basis of a distinct ethnic makeup. We are existing as a nation because we rejected this stupid narrative that nations are formed on the basis of ethnicity. I have to quote Iqbal here, as he rejected this narrative in a very bold and direct manner:

Iss Dour Mein Mai Aur Hai, Jaam Aur Hai Jam Aur
Saqi Ne Bina Ki Rawish-e-Lutf-o-Sitam Aur

In this age the wine, the cup, even Jam is different
The cup‐bearer started different ways of grace and tyranny

Muslim Ne Bhi Tameer Kiya Apna Haram Aur
Tehzeeb Ke Azar Ne Tarshawaye Sanam Aur

The Muslim also constructed a different harem of his own
The Azar of civilization made different idols of his own

In Taza Khudaon Mein Bara Sub Se Watan Hai
Jo Pairhan Iss Ka Hai, Woh Mazhab Ka Kafan Hai

Country, is the biggest among these new gods!
What is its shirt is the shroud of Deen (Religion)

Ye But Ke Tarashida-e-Tehzeeb-e-Nawi Hai
Gharatgar-e-Kashana-e-Deen-e-Nabwi Hai

This idol which is the product of the new civilization
Is the plunderer of the structure of the Holy Prophet’s Deen (Religion)

Bazu Tera Touheed Ki Quwwat Se Qawi Hai
Islam Tera Dais Hai, Tu Mustafavi Hai

Your arm is enforced with the strength of the Divine Unity
You are the followers of Mustafa, your country is Islam

Nazzara-e-Dairina Zamane Ko Dikha De
Ae Mustafavi Khak Mein Iss Butt Ko Mila De!

You should show the old panorama to the world
O Mustafaa’s follower! You should destroy this idol

Hai Tark-e-Watan Sunnat-e-Mehboob (S.A.W.)-e-Elahi
De Tu Bhi Nabuwwat Ki Sadaqat Pe Gawahi

Renouncing the country is the way of the God’s Beloved (PBUH)
You should also testify to the Prophethood’s Truth by similar action

Aqwam Mein Makhlooq-e-Khuda Batti Hai Iss Se
Qoumiat-e-Islam Ki Jar Katti Hai Iss Se

God’s creation is unjustly divided among nations by it
The Islamic concept of nationality is uprooted by it

In another of his masterpiece he attacked tenaciously on one of the most influential and respected scholar of his time Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madni. The same Madni who then adopted Hindustan over Pakistan by accepting ethnicity as the basis of nationality. Can I ask the Question: what is the difference between Hussain Ahmad Madni and a Pakistani who is trying to make ethnic makeup as the basis of nationality?

The East still does not know the mysteries of this Religion, otherwise
From Deoband, Hussain Ahmad! What a most strange person he is-
Crying from the pulpit that the (Muslim) community is from the nation!
Unaware as he is of the rank of Muhammad sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam the Arabian
Reach, Mustafa, the Chosen One, for in this Religion 'everything is he'
If you do not reach him, everything is like Abu Lahab (i.e. satanic, evil)

The point needs to be heavily understood that we are not a nation because we have some distinct ethnic makeup, or we all belong to a same race or tribe. Our forefathers came from all across the world, from Arabia to Central Asia, from east India to Persia and from Afghanistan to Anatolia. As you yourself mentioned that our culture has more resemblance to turkey then any other neighbouring country. Moreover, the original settlers of Indus plain are few among us. Majority of our forefathers came from different regions of the world. Therefore, how can a Moghul be able to recover his history from Indus Plain, how can a tribe which originally came from Persia be able to recover his history from Indus plain? How can a Muhajir from Gangatic plain or UP be able to recover his history from Indus plain? Why our Mohajir brothers left their ancestral homes and joined us? For what cause, for what purpose? In essence, we are a nation of different ethnic makeups, races, tribes, colours and languages.

Our identity is not linked with geography, culture, race or ethnicity. Our identity as a nation is only linked with Islam. Whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, but the truth is that we are linked with each other only due to Islam. We are a nation because we all believe in the same ideology. We are a nation because we all bare witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah. We are a nation because we all bare witness that Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him and Upon all His followers) is the last messenger.

Please dont try to create false identities. These false identities of race, ethnicity and tribes have given us nothing. These false identities were behind the creation of movements like Sindhu Desh, Mohajir or Pukhton Tahafuz. Give up your false identity of race and come to the real identity of Islam. That is the essence of Pan Islamism.



I am sending thousand curses on your ethnic nationalism. And as far as death of religion goes:

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness. Quran 48:28

No Muslim can accept that Islam is dead. Sell this choran to infidels.

This is by far the best post I have ever read on here. Each time I come on here, I read nationalistic posts followed by ignorant posts, and this is often post after post after post. Reading this post of yours is like a find a light at the end of the tunnel.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that some people are nationalistic, they have love for their nation and want to defend it, but they don't realise that nationalism is a form of tribalism or Jahillihya. The only way forward for Muslims is through Islam.

And I am most glad that Pakistan was created on the basis of Islam, as eventually the citizens within it will have to come face to face with this reality and the sooner the better. Muslim unity cannot be achieved on the basis of nationalism, but only through Islam.

 

[Mutakalim]

Great post. I can’t disagree with anything you have written here.

Let’s keep this discussion at this level and stay away from divisions.

Thanks for your kind words.

However, equally dangerous are religious extremism, the type seen in Khawarij (Daesh) and radical Salafism (rejectors of Islamic tradition.) Now we also have the manipulative Barelvi extremists typified by Qadim Hussain Rizvi and political parasites in the guise of scholars such as Mullah Fazlu.

Agreed. However, I would like to add some points. Surely, Khwarij are dogs of hell but we cant link them with other Sunni school of thoughts. There is a clear distinction in theology between Khwarij and other Sunni school of thoughts. In every group there are few extremist and we should avoid generalizing them all. I am not saying that you have done that but IMHO, we should avoid mentioning names of sects. I have experienced that usually people drag their opposite sects in the discussion, when their seems to be no reason of doing that. I am not criticising your point, it is still valid, just pointing some things out.

Concept of Qawm is an established one in Islam. In this we see Arabs, Persians, Turks have always functioned and been identified as different aqwaam.

The main issue with Partition was the division based on what defines a qawm.

Indian Muslims (JUI of Hind, Aligarh, Azad) and their allies posited that Pakistan was not a new qawm, hence haram.

Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah RAA, under the teachings of Allama Iqbal RAA, held the belief that Pakistanis (Kashmiris and eventually some Afghans included) were one qawm.

I have a difference of opinion regarding your assertion, but I think we should leave it here.

We had a different outlook than Indians, with a different racial composition, different view of history, and cultural traditions.

Not to mention Hadith where Rasool Pak saws clearly differentiated Sindh from Al-Hind.

We see that there is a historical precedent for our nation, older than even Islam.

Yeah, we have a different outlook than Hindus of India. However, same can not be said about Indian or others Muslim. That was the main point behind my whole argument. I dont care about historical precedent other then Islam. As Quaid e Aazam rightly pointed out (If I am not misquoting, you can correct me), Pakistan came into being when first Muslim set foot on Indian soil. What the local people were doing before the advent of Islam is irrelevant. We can learn and educate our self regarding the history of ancient people but we can not create an Islamic state from ruins of Mohnjodaro or Taxilla. This whole argument that somehow Pakistan existed as a geographical, cultural, ideological or racial entity, before the advent of Islam, is ridiculous and preposterous, to say the least. Sorry for using strong words, but this fact can not be ignored.

Can you give me the reference of above mentioned Hadees? I am not saying that Maaz Allah you have misquoted the Hadees, but we have to follow rules set be Muhaditheen regarding the transmission of Hadees.

Great scholars like Maulana Shabir Ahmad Usmani, and eventually Maulana Maududi, supported the idea of Pakistan.

From then on, Pakistan developed world renowned Islamic intelligentsia like Maulana Taqi and Rafi Usmani, Maulana Sami ul haq, Maulana Abdul-Samie, Dr. Israr Ahmad, etc.

Agreed. The contributions of scholars like Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and likes of Peer Jamaat Ali Shah can not be forgotten.

We are a nation whose identity is firmly grounded in Islam, as that is the birth of our national identity, similar to how Turks were originally one people but have become an amalgamation of various newly converted Muslims from the crossroads of Eurasia.

Our ancestors brought Islam to our region, established separate garrison towns away from native pre-Islamic people, and preached Islam without compulsion to those who would listen. Slowly but surely the whole population converted of their own free will.

We established a new qawm on this land and changed its destiny forever, but we should not forget that we share the blood and DNA of the native inhabitants of this land as well (descendants of IVC and Iranic nomads.)

Agreed. A percentage of our population shares the blood and DNA of the native inhabitants, and that is all.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Agreed. However, I would like to add some points. Surely, Khwarij are dogs of hell but we cant link them with other Sunni school of thoughts. There is a clear distinction in theology between Khwarij and other Sunni school of thoughts. In every group there are few extremist and we should avoid generalizing them all. I am not saying that you have done that but IMHO, we should avoid mentioning names of sects. I have experienced that usually people drag their opposite sects in the discussion, when their seems to be no reason of doing that. I am not criticising your point, it is still valid, just pointing some things out.

Salafis are not Sunnis in the traditional sense, because Ahlus Sunnah wa al Jamaat is identified by the 4 mazahib (schools) and the ijma ul ulema (consensus of scholars.)

To Sunnis, they are equally as erroneous as Shias, Wahabbis, Ismailis, some MB factions, and other sects of Islam who don’t follow the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad saws completely.

In relation to Khawarij and Radical Salafism, these are generally the ones who have a confused and false view of history.

It all has to do with rejection of Islamic tradition and scholarship which leads to religious illiteracy.

Yeah, we have a different outlook than Hindus of India. However, same can not be said about Indian or others Muslim. That was the main point behind my whole argument. I dont care about historical precedent other then Islam. As Quaid e Aazam rightly pointed out (If I am not misquoting, you can correct me), Pakistan came into being when first Muslim set foot on Indian soil. What the local people were doing before the advent of Islam is irrelevant. We can learn and educate our self regarding the history of ancient people but we can not create an Islamic state from ruins of Mohnjodaro or Taxilla. This whole argument that somehow Pakistan existed as an geographical, cultural, ideological or racial entity, before the advent of Islam, is ridiculous and preposterous, to say the least. Sorry for using strong words, but this fact can not be ignored.

We cannot ignore this. Thanks @Indus Pakistan for the image.

Can you give me the reference of above mentioned Hadees? I am not saying that Maaz Allah you have misquoted the Hadees, but we have to follow rules set be Muhaditheen regarding the transmission of Hadees.

Abu Hurairah RA:

My close friend, the truthful one, the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) told me: “Among this ummah there will be an expedition to Sindh and Al Hind.” If I live to see it and am martyred, all well and good, and if I – and he said some word – return, I am Abu Hurayrah the freed, I will be ransomed from the Fire.

Narrated by an-Nasaa’i in as-Sunan (no. 3173) and by Ahmad in al-Musnad (14/419)

 

[Mutakalim]

It's not really bad to know bad one's history but I do see where you're coming from. The emphasis that is put on the indus valley civilization by some people on this forum goes into the weird obsessive realms. I really don't see this leading anywhere fruitful.

Exactly, that is the crux of whole argument. You have summed it up very well. People are not realising the fact that enemy is not just attacking us on the border, he is also busy on ideological fronts. Some members here are creating and promoting a false and malicious ideological narrative. They want to create an alternate ideological construct of this nation entirely based on race and myths. OP is a known racist and yet some people are buying his filth because they dont want to criticise wrongdoings of their ancestors.

It won't be long until some of these people start openly rejecting Islam and saying things like "Islam is an arab invention and we should stick to what our indus ancestors did". I mean some of them already attack mosques and Islamic rules & traditions so we're quite close to that stage. Some have strong faith so they won't fall into such actions but it's like a domino effect, one falls and then another falls and they don't all fall at the same time. Maybe a generation or two and we'll see these anti-Islamic things said more openly in society in conjugation with this indus valley civilisation pride thing.

We have few members here who openly reject, malign and throw insults on Islamic values and traditions. I have never heard these things in my real life or in public, but this trend can grow in our society.

Iranians tend to push a similar narrative and we've seen how well their persian nationalism has worked out for their faith. Even the kurds, who've never had a nation and are the most nationalistic race I've encountered in real life, do a similar thing where they start looking pre-Islam for things to be proud of and we've all seen how that's worked out for their faith too.

We have our own examples in Pakistan, but dont know why people dont learn from these mistakes. When you start traveling on the path of racial nationalism, then there is no end to it. It simply means destruction, division and balkanization.

I don't know when the timeline of the supposed indus valley civilisation ends for these people but if it means just any civilisations or people which emerged in the area then you're pretty right on the fact about it being subjugated. Historically it was a land which has been repeatedly subjugated by foreigners (not that there's any shame in that, it's just at a location which seems to get conquered often). Greeks, persians, white huns, gupta empire are just a few that I can name off the top of my head who subjugated or ruled over parts of it. And after post Islam, we got conquered by plenty of central asian peoples too. I guess the propagators of Indus nationalism probably won't add that to the future indus textbooks though... Personally I don't think there's any shame in being conquered but just saying.

As far as I am able to comprehend their narrative, the timeline of the glorious Indus Valley Civilization ends at the advent of Islam. I dont have any thing against the original inhabitants of this region, but this false sense of belonging needs to be shattered.

How unfortunate is the person who has been given the honour of Islam and yet he ignores it and pursues other things to be proud of. Living that kind of life is truly sad but unfortunately people won't realise that until they're actually dead and then it'll be too late.

We can only present truth in front of them with reason and logic. Hidyah is ultimately in the hand of God.

This is by far the best post I have ever read on here. Each time I come on here, I read nationalistic posts followed by ignorant posts, and this is often post after post after post. Reading this post of yours is like a find a light at the end of the tunnel.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that some people are nationalistic, they have love for their nation and want to defend it, but they don't realise that nationalism is a form of tribalism or Jahillihya. The only way forward for Muslims is through Islam.

And I am most glad that Pakistan was created on the basis of Islam, as eventually the citizens within it will have to come face to face with this reality and the sooner the better. Muslim unity cannot be achieved on the basis of nationalism, but only through Islam.

Brother, your post is heart touching and encouraging. Let us pray that may God give us strength, knowledge, wisdom and reason to stand against all forms of tyrannies. May God give us strength to stand against enemies of Rasool Allah (P.B.U.H) and his Deen.