"Pakistan - 5,000 years old" PMIK in China

[SD 10]

Indus valley civilization and all its followers were triumphed by us 1000 year ago. Their ancestors were our subordinate and their culture was nothing but a deceit. They will always be inferior to Islam

 

[Mutakalim]

spiritualism was never tied to persian pre islamic culture of zoroasterianism as far as im aware of, those sufi traditions came after the spiritualistic traditions of buddhism and hinduism. SO chances are the islamic spiritualism came from a prior buddhist spiritual tradition which was existing in central asia.

regards

Yeah these theories of orientalist are rubbish at best. And I dont know why some of our liberals are accepting them like book of God. Maybe, their eyes can not gaze beyond the literature written by orientalist, which was primarily anti Islamic.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

spiritualism was never tied to persian pre islamic culture of zoroasterianism as far as im aware of, those sufi traditions came after the spiritualistic traditions of buddhism and hinduism. SO chances are the islamic spiritualism came from a prior buddhist spiritual tradition which was existing in central asia.

regards

Absolutely ridiculous.

Spiritualism is a part of the religion of Islam, from its beginning, and also mankind from our creation.

You can read the stories of Musa and Khizr RAA in the Quran, which happened before Buddhism and modern Hinduism.

Zoroastrianism was a ritualistic and communal religion, it did not have much personal spirituality, however all the Abrahamic religions do.

Sufism came from the early Muslims, namely Hazrat Ali RA, who was a spiritual student of Muhammad saws and a teacher of sacred knowledge passed to him. He had a very deep and contemplative disposition, and this is why he was used to relay this kind of knowledge.

From then on, Arab preachers passed it on to the Persians (like Rumi,) who subsequently passed it on to the Turks, Afghans/Pakistanis.

Allama Iqbal RA comes from this great spiritual lineage. Pakistan is the embodiment of the Sufi longing to bring back clear truth into a world filled with falsehood. Quaid e Azam RA was his mureed, he saw Allama Iqbal has his guide.

Indus valley civilization and all its followers were triumphed by us 1000 year ago. Their ancestors were our subordinate and their culture was nothing but a deceit. They will always be inferior to Islam

As if Islam came out of nowhere and Muslims sprouted from the Earth like saplings.

Nations are built over thousands of years, destinies are written longer than our lifespans, Islam was merely the stepping of our people into the light from the shadows.

In relation to culture, all which is not against Islam is blameless and the early Muslims celebrated their pre-Islamic cultural heritage.

Abu Bakr RA was himself a genealogist and historian of Arab tribes, which was why he went with the Prophet saws when meeting other tribes.

 

[Zibago]

Now the question is how to implement Indus style Nationalism to the general populace I think the the most important think IK can do problem is they are two competing narratives well actually 3 one is the Islamist version where we the vanguard of the Muslim world 2nd is the westernised elite form of Secularism 3rd is Indus Nationalism,I prefer 3rd as it balances out and is easily can help make a self confident country who when asked who they are can answer but we need to counter Indian cultural imperialism in all forms sadly we failed at that diaspora as well

He managed to merge all 3 and that is just fantastic

So what will happen to those sons of arabs.

You are telling that to Imran Khan Niazi?

Happy to know pakistanis are accepting their roots.

When did we not ? But we just choose to dump part of our heritage we find a bit lacking
You know the culture you follow?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

He managed to merge all 3 and that is just fantastic

Imran Khan is a leader who will be remembered by successive generations of Pakistanis as the revitalizer of our identity, culture, and religion.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pyramid Civilization / Nile Civilization = Egypt
Indus River Civilization = Pakistan

Both area were hub for travellers

 

[El Sidd]

One of the advantages of a populist person in 3rd world countries is the cult worship.

Intellectuals go to great many lengths to explain slip of tongue, ignorance and trusting history for political glorification.

Last time he went to Iran and desired to speak Persian and be Persian and now he is china so doing the river people dance.

He would say anything you feed him if that keeps him in the limelight and PM of the country

 

[Rafi]

Ancient Pakistan is one of the worlds oldest and greatest civilisations.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Secondly, the greatness of Indus valley Civilization is Total and absolute rubbish

What defines rubbish in this context?

To me, an advanced civilization that lasted over 4,000 years with remarkable sophistication in various fields such as urban planning, agriculture, hydraulic engineering, and much more is quite the opposite of rubbish... even their sewage system was more superior than what we have now.

1000 curses on the civilization which used to worship million big deities and billion smaller ones

Your irrational generalization is confusing modern Hinduism with what the people of IVC may have worshiped (which we really don't know). Based on archaeological findings, the deities they would have worshiped would have been less than a dozen not a million or a billion.

This Indus civilization was so great that it was ruled and subjugated by a small minority for almost 1000 years

The Indus Valley Civilization was already in decline and had entered into it's collapse state (identical to the collapse of Mycenaean Greece) by the time the Aryans arrived, there is no solid evidence to conclude that the Aryans "conquered" or "subjugated" the natives, in fact the rigid split between the Indo-Aryans and the Indo-Iranians in terms of culture, religion, language suggests that the Indo-Aryans in fact adopted elements of local culture, language and religion which most likely derived from coexistence and inter-mingling.

If your statement is in reference to Brahmins and the caste system, do understand that the caste system was never really installed or accepted in the Indus region as evident in Hindu scriptures describing the "foreign land of the five rivers". Subjugation by a minority ensued in modern-day Northern India, when some tribes migrated from Punjab to the Ganges Valley due to constant in-fighting and subdued the natives, developing and enforcing the caste system. Hence why Brahmins have the highest genetic steppe influence among the Indians though still significantly less compared to Pakistanis.

Moreover, the Indus Valley Civilization's own ideology was so bankrupt that it adopted the foreign Arabian ideology. The conversion to foreign ideology was so complete and absolute that Indus valley Civilization has now emerged as a torch bearer of a foreign religion by producing thousands of great scholars and millions of Mujahideen.

I am not sure whether you understand what "ideology" means here or even what the Indus Valley Civilization was. IVC dissolved thousands of years before the arrival of Islam and along with the migration of the Indo-Aryans morphed into various Kingdoms that were often invaded by foreign empires.

If you're referring to culture... then cultural transmission and adoption is norm, much of the culture of the early Arabs were introduced to them by other peoples, that does not make them inferior in anyway and likewise the same applies for every people.

Also, much or even most of the cultures/traditions we follow is still pre-Islamic, though largely unnoticeable us, just as the fragrance of your home is, due to being used to it.

In my university, Pakistani Punjabis associate more with Sikh Punjabis than they do with Arab Muslims, despite the historic resentment between the two. It is natural.

We are a nation of Islam. You can end your delusions by reading Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

We are a nation that follows Islam but that does not mean we abandon our history/culture and try to larp as those who treat us as slaves in their mega-cities. Those are traits of the ignorant and the spineless.

Recently mature harappan bricks have also been discovered as far Bihar and varified by officials from indian archaeological survey, so saying ganga people were eating bananas then will be an exaggeration.

The Harrapans established fringe settlements throughout adjacent regions, some as far as the borders of Tajikistan. However the solid fact of the matter is; the core and center of the Indus Valley Civilization was located exactly where the name suggests.

Pakistan existence starts from time when first Muslim entered in subcontinent.Otherwise there are different ethnic group and races currently living in india and failed to achieve their separate identity and representation.The main reason behind existence of Pakistan is Islam

Pakistan as a political entity began in 1947, not when the first Muslims arrived. That is a fact. However, we; as the people, did not randomly poof into existance in 1947, nor did we migrate from Asgard or Mars.

The Indus Region has had many polities and Pakistan is among the long list of them.

Doesn't matter when Pakistan was created; our heritage, history, culture, languages and so much more that span back thousands of years is now that of Pakistan, a nation and name that we created through collective choice to represent a land that we have been inhabiting for countless years, Pakistan as our chosen nation today, inherits the heritage of our land.

You mean bangladesh was not pakistan ?

Bangladesh was originally never meant to be a part of Pakistan in the eyes of the original founders such as Rehmat Ali who instead envisioned separate nations for both Bengali and Indian Muslims. The separation of Bangladesh was natural and inevitable which proved religion cannot be the sole unifying factor of a country.

Indus valley civilization was spread as far as gujrat, haryana, parts of uttar pradesh so muhajirs have right claim over indus valley, they are free to stay where they want.

Most of the sites that existed in these provinces were fringe settlements, similar to the ones found in Afghanistan, except for Lothal & Dholavira. Nonetheless, we have no issue with North West Indians claiming the Indus Valley Civilization, as we share geographical proximity and some cultural affinity with them (especially East Punjabis), however they only make up a mere 4-6% of the Indian population, so the issue arises when some Kumarswamigopal from Lucknow or Chandrukrishnamantri from Calcutta look to the Indus Region, hundreds of miles away, and utter "muh ancestors".

We should aspire to recover the lofty views of our ancestors (Dilli Sultanat, Ghaznavi, Ghori, Mughal, Durrani)

A part from the Durrani, I disagree with the rest, based upon both historic and scientific (genetic) grounds.

Indus valley civilization and all its followers were triumphed by us 1000 year ago. Their ancestors were our subordinate and their culture was nothing but a deceit. They will always be inferior to Islam

Learn some history before you go around making such statements.

 

[W.11]

The Harrapans established fringe settlements throughout adjacent regions, some as far as the borders of Tajikistan. However the solid fact of the matter is; the core and center of the Indus Valley Civilization was located exactly where the name suggests.

what solid facts are you talking about? claiming that the bricks from bihar are harappan outposts are based on what facts?

regards

 

[B.K.N]

One of the advantages of a populist person in 3rd world countries is the cult worship.

Intellectuals go to great many lengths to explain slip of tongue, ignorance and trusting history for political glorification.

Last time he went to Iran and desired to speak Persian and be Persian and now he is china so doing the river people dance.

He would say anything you feed him if that keeps him in the limelight and PM of the country

What is your problem with farsi
Farsi was court language of mughal empire Delhi sultanate and also of Sikh empire
Urdu was made official language by British

 

[El Sidd]

What is your problem with farsi
Farsi was court language of mughal empire Delhi sultanate and also of Sikh empire
Urdu was made official language by British

Mughals were not native people in these parts too.

Urdu was made official language by Jinnah not British.

Mr. Khan enjoys 3rd world propaganda of supermacist civilisations

 

[Ritual]

Nonetheless, we have no issue with North West Indians claiming the Indus Valley Civilization, as we share geographical proximity and some cultural affinity with them (especially East Punjabis), however they only make up a mere 4-6% of the Indian population, so the issue arises when some Kumarswamigopal from Lucknow or Chandrukrishnamantri from Calcutta look to the Indus Region, hundreds of miles away, and utter "muh ancestors".


.

This is very true and important to understand. Like you said someone far off modern India tries to claim the IVC is like a Frenchman trying to claim something from Spanish or Russian history. The idea of an ‘ancient India’ that was one unified centralised state is one of the biggest falsehoods. The IVC probably shares some history but so did European or African Cultures. You certainly don’t see sub-saharan Africans claiming the Nile civilisation just because they share the continent.

 

[B.K.N]

Mughals were not native people in these parts too.

Urdu was made official language by Jinnah not British.

Mr. Khan enjoys 3rd world propaganda of supermacist civilisations

Imran Khan said if British had not ruled sub continent then we would have been speaking persian
British made Urdu official language of British India and medium of education

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Here's how we fix this:

1. Don't be so vocal in taking pride in anything that Islam considers abhorrent (which isn't hard, you just have to not mention all the statue/temple making)
2. Emphasise that IVC existed prior to Hinduism
3. Emphasise that modern Hinduism is a corruption of its original form
4. Emphasise that Buddhism and Sikhism are nowhere near as idolatrous as Hinduism
5. Emphasise that we don't know what religion IVC followed



History says we don't know their religion.

This would be a blunder.

Let me explain.

1. Temple/statue making and idol worship was central to all pagan civilizations. Dissociating pagan cultures with paganism is impossible. Without idol worship there would be no Bamiyan, Acropolis, Somnath temple etc. No Muslim should take pride in anything to do with these constructions. They should remain as they are (if they exist). They may be used for other purposes today instead of being demolished.
2. Hinduism has developed over centuries. IVC has too many 'Hindu' practices to be considered as prior to Hinduism. In fact the mention of these places in the Vedic texts make it difficult to establish this. Even if true, one could argue that the IVC created or polished/adopted Hinduism. In any case, this is also not acceptable to any Muslim.
3. This is the weakest link. Muslims should just contend with the fact that Hinduism is a false ideology. There was no pure form that would now be corrupted. There is no single original book that the message could be misinterpreted.
4. Buddhism is highly idolatrous. There are numerous Buddha poses - each having a different look and feature. Sikhism could be considered, but it is far too aligned with the Hindu religion to be considered Islam like. Oneness of God is a central concept but it does not invalidate the Hindu paths to attain peace. That is why it gained many Hindu followers and almost no Muslim.
5. True, what we KNOW that it was not Islam. There are no sculpture to show the people knew even the basics of our Deen. There are meditation poses and so on. Hindus or pagans will be better suited to claim it in that case.

We, Muslims, should ideally wash our hands off this past entirely and consider it as what it was - the age of ignorance.

We can be proud that yes, people inhabited this land. But pride is problematic.

What if I ask these below questions (not to you, but to all who are proud of the IVC)

- We were so advanced then? What went wrong?
- There is so corruption now. How could they then be so prosperous?
- Maybe we went down a wrong path. perhaps the age of Jahiliyah was not so bad?
- Perhaps we should doubt some of the concepts in Islam?
- Maybe Prophet Muhammad should NOT have destroyed the idols in the Kaaba?
.
.
.
- Can we become pagans again?

For you Pakistanis there is another problem - your nationality.

Without Islam - Balochis, Punjabis, Sindhis Kashmiris are separate nations . If unity is stressed, you are another Indian nation based on several multilingual sub nations like in India but worshipping the same pagan traditions that rest of India does.

Get my drift?

If the Egyptians, Iranians etc can take pride in their ancient history then why can't Pakistanis?

Because no/negligible pagan Egyptian/Iranians exist today.

Once Muslims start having pride in their own non Muslim past, they will associate themselves to their non Muslim past. Elite Iranians in the West already do this. Most of this group have already left Islam.