"Pakistan - 5,000 years old" PMIK in China

[Pakhtoon yum]

By this standard, USA is a pretty ancient country too. And so are many others.

? Native Americans yes modern America filled with European invaders? No.

Where as Pakistan still has those native people they didnt just vanish into thin air. Like how the Indians argue.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

The separation of Bangladesh was natural and inevitable which proved religion cannot be the sole unifying factor of a country.

Disagree here. Religion can be the most important factor.

if you go through the Mukti Bahini - they promoted sub nationalism over religion. If you had kept religion as the most important factor, there would have been genuine resentment, but they would not have raised their weapons against the Muslim state.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Soo much butthurt on reality. The constipated state of these people is sad to watch.

Firstly, I must admit that the liberal mafia is master in deceit and deception. This guy has picked up few words of PMIK and then twisted them to suit his own stupid narrative. This, in reality is like clutching at straws. He heard few words and jumped to the conclusion that IK is converted to liberalism or Indianism, the ideology which this guy preaches. IK is a straight forward Muslim and in almost every speech he repeats the phrase of "Rayasat e Madina". The same "Rayasat e Madina" which is the main target of liberalism.

Secondly, the greatness of Indus valley Civilization is Total and absolute rubbish. 1000 curses on the civilization which used to worship million big deities and billion smaller ones. This Indus civilization was so great that it was ruled and subjugated by a small minority for almost 1000 years. Moreover, the Indus Valley Civilization's own ideology was so bankrupt that it adopted the foreign Arabian ideology. The conversion to foreign ideology was so complete and absolute that Indus valley Civilization has now emerged as a torch bearer of a foreign religion by producing thousands of great scholars and millions of Mujahideen.

@waz @Arsalan @Dubious @The Eagle
Can someone please take care of this dirt for brains. He is purposely attacking our heritage and ancestors in multiple threads. He is no different then the terrorist that attacked our historical sites in the Hope's of getting rid of our past. Why is this being tolerated?

 

[Hamza913]

1. Temple/statue making and idol worship was central to all pagan civilizations.

There is little to no evidence they practised this.

2. Hinduism has developed over centuries. IVC has too many 'Hindu' practices to be considered as prior to Hinduism.

Not really.

3. This is the weakest link. Muslims should just contend with the fact that Hinduism is a false ideology.

Early Hinduism wasn't quite as blasphemous.

4. Buddhism is highly idolatrous.

Not as much as Hinduism.

Without Islam - Balochis, Punjabis, Sindhis Kashmiris are separate nations . If unity is stressed, you are another Indian nation based on several multilingual sub nations like in India but worshipping the same pagan traditions that rest of India does.

Pakistan is a mix of Iranic + Indic influences, and our civilisation centres around the Indus river. Islam aside, that's what distinguishes us from them.

 

[W.11]

This would be a blunder.

Let me explain.

1. Temple/statue making and idol worship was central to all pagan civilizations. Dissociating pagan cultures with paganism is impossible. Without idol worship there would be no Bamiyan, Acropolis, Somnath temple etc. No Muslim should take pride in anything to do with these constructions. They should remain as they are (if they exist). They may be used for other purposes today instead of being demolished.
2. Hinduism has developed over centuries. IVC has too many 'Hindu' practices to be considered as prior to Hinduism. In fact the mention of these places in the Vedic texts make it difficult to establish this. Even if true, one could argue that the IVC created or polished/adopted Hinduism. In any case, this is also not acceptable to any Muslim.
3. This is the weakest link. Muslims should just contend with the fact that Hinduism is a false ideology. There was no pure form that would now be corrupted. There is no single original book that the message could be misinterpreted.
4. Buddhism is highly idolatrous. There are numerous Buddha poses - each having a different look and feature. Sikhism could be considered, but it is far too aligned with the Hindu religion to be considered Islam like. Oneness of God is a central concept but it does not invalidate the Hindu paths to attain peace. That is why it gained many Hindu followers and almost no Muslim.
5. True, what we KNOW that it was not Islam. There are no sculpture to show the people knew even the basics of our Deen. There are meditation poses and so on. Hindus or pagans will be better suited to claim it in that case.

We, Muslims, should ideally wash our hands off this past entirely and consider it as what it was - the age of ignorance.

We can be proud that yes, people inhabited this land. But pride is problematic.

What if I ask these below questions (not to you, but to all who are proud of the IVC)

- We were so advanced then? What went wrong?
- There is so corruption now. How could they then be so prosperous?
- Maybe we went down a wrong path. perhaps the age of Jahiliyah was not so bad?
- Perhaps we should doubt some of the concepts in Islam?
- Maybe Prophet Muhammad should NOT have destroyed the idols in the Kaaba?
.
.
.
- Can we become pagans again?

For you Pakistanis there is another problem - your nationality.

Without Islam - Balochis, Punjabis, Sindhis Kashmiris are separate nations . If unity is stressed, you are another Indian nation based on several multilingual sub nations like in India but worshipping the same pagan traditions that rest of India does.

Get my drift?


Because no/negligible pagan Egyptian/Iranians exist today.

Once Muslims start having pride in their own non Muslim past, they will associate themselves to their non Muslim past. Elite Iranians in the West already do this. Most of this group have already left Islam.

The word pagan religion has ben used for roman, greek and other european and mesopotamian religions which never had any religious texts and discussed religious philosophy.

THe hinduism and buddhism though are not pagan because they always had a religious text, buddha statue is not worshipped and probably serves the same purpose as the jesus statue, buddha according to buddhism was not a god, buddhism is not a theistic religion, meaning, it doesnt believe in god, in the same way, hinduism has multitudes of philosophies which may or may not involve idol worship, same goes to jainism which also has a sect which doesnt believe in representing its trithankaras in idol form. The deities which came later in buddism was due to hindu influence.

regards

 

[Mutakalim]

@waz @Arsalan @Dubious @The Eagle
Can someone please take care of this dirt for brains. He is purposely attacking our heritage and ancestors in multiple threads. He is no different then the terrorist that attacked our historical sites in the Hope's of getting rid of our past. Why is this being tolerated?

If you try to spend that much effort on thinking and reason, you can do much better for yourself and for our society. But it is generally observed that liberal mafia and ethnic nationalist lack intellectual capacity to reason.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Majority of the region was all one country
Today we are told , Iraq is not part of Pakistan
Syria is not part of Pakistan
Or Iran should not be traded with

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

If you try to spend that much effort on thinking and reason, you can do much better for yourself and for our society. But it is generally observed that liberal mafia and ethnic nationalist lack intellectual capacity to reason.

Your the one that is attacking our history. Your the one that's destroying our structural integrity. You are anti Pakistan, move to some Arab country where your brother arabs wont even shake your hand

 

[Mutakalim]

Your the one that is attacking our history. Your the one that's destroying our structural integrity. You are anti Pakistan, move to some Arab country where your brother arabs wont even shake your hand

Are you representative of the whole of Pakistan? Who gave you the authority to exclude Pakistanis from Pakistan?

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Are you representative of the whole of Pakistan? Who gave you the authority to exclude Pakistanis from Pakistan?

You are the same as the terrorists that destroyed our historic site. Shame on you wannabe Arab why dont you move to Arabia and let them spit on your face

 

[Mutakalim]

You are the same as the terrorists that destroyed our historic site. Shame on you wannabe Arab why dont you move to Arabia and let them spit on your face

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

The word pagan religion has ben used for roman, greek and other european and mesopotamian religions which never had any religious texts and discussed religious philosophy.

THe hinduism and buddhism though are not pagan because they always had a religious text, buddha statue is not worshipped and probably serves the same purpose as the jesus statue, buddha according to buddhism was not a god, buddhism is not a theistic religion, meaning, it doesnt believe in god, in the same way, hinduism has multitudes of philosophies which may or may not involve idol worship, same goes to jainism which also has a sect which doesnt believe in representing its trithankaras in idol form. The deities which came later in buddism was due to hindu influence.

regards

According to Merrimack-Webster...

What Do pagan and heathen really Mean?
Pagan is derived from the Late Latin paganus, which was used at the end of the Roman Empire to name those who practiced a religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Early Christians often used the term to refer to non-Christians who worshiped multiple deities. In Latin, paganus originally meant “country dweller” or “civilian;” it is believed that the word’s religious meanings developed either from the enduring non-Christian religious practices of those who lived far from the Roman cities where Christianity was more quickly adopted, or from the fact that early Christians referred to themselves as “soldiers of Christ,” making nonbelievers “civilians.”

The definition and etymology of heathen overlap with those of pagan: both words denote “an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible,” and heathen, like pagan, is believed to have come from the term for a country inhabitant, or in this case, a "heath dweller."

Both words have developed broader and pejorative meanings over time, with paganbeing used to mean “an irreligious or hedonistic person” and heathen “uncivilized” or “strange,” but their original meanings are still in use.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan

If you try to spend that much effort on thinking and reason, you can do much better for yourself and for our society. But it is generally observed that liberal mafia and ethnic nationalist lack intellectual capacity to reason.

Instead of creating fitnah, do something productive for Pakistan and Islam.

Par for the course, you would believe that you are the only person correct and everyone else is deluded.

Please don’t speak about Islam and insult/put down other Muslims, as you are doing.

 

[Mutakalim]

Instead of creating fitnah, do something productive for Pakistan and Islam.

Par for the course, you would believe that you are the only person correct and everyone else is deluded.

Please don’t speak about Islam and insult/put down other Muslims, as you are doing.

Firstly, it is a news for me that expressing opinion against Indus Valley Civilization is Fitnah. I didnt knew previously that IVC has religious sanctity in your version of Islam.

Nevertheless, your advice is well received. Inshallah, I will strive hard against the Fitnah of secularism, liberalism and ethnic nationalism. Still, maybe I am wrong and will try to educate myself. Only Prophets A.S are safe from mistakes. I have no hard feelings against anyone, you are all my brothers and I respect your opinion. But, can you people do the same by not issuing certificates of Ghadari?

Secondly, I dont think you have any authority to restrict me to speak about my religion.

 

[W.11]

According to Merrimack-Webster...

What Do pagan and heathen really Mean?
Pagan is derived from the Late Latin paganus, which was used at the end of the Roman Empire to name those who practiced a religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Early Christians often used the term to refer to non-Christians who worshiped multiple deities. In Latin, paganus originally meant “country dweller” or “civilian;” it is believed that the word’s religious meanings developed either from the enduring non-Christian religious practices of those who lived far from the Roman cities where Christianity was more quickly adopted, or from the fact that early Christians referred to themselves as “soldiers of Christ,” making nonbelievers “civilians.”

The definition and etymology of heathen overlap with those of pagan: both words denote “an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible,” and heathen, like pagan, is believed to have come from the term for a country inhabitant, or in this case, a "heath dweller."

Both words have developed broader and pejorative meanings over time, with paganbeing used to mean “an irreligious or hedonistic person” and heathen “uncivilized” or “strange,” but their original meanings are still in use.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan

If that is the case than even Zoroastrianism can be declared paganism, Zoroastrianism is not polythiestic. The traditional definition of paganism as i already stated revolved around ''folk religious'' beliefs in europe and middle east prior to spread of christianity etc, and not the institutionalised religions such as hinduism, buddhism etc.

regards

regards

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

If that is the case than even Zoroastrianism can be declared paganism, Zoroastrianism is not polythiestic. The traditional definition of paganism as i already stated revolved around ''folk religious'' beliefs in europe and middle east prior to spread of christianity etc, and not the institutionalised religions such as hinduism, buddhism etc.

regards

regards

The Islamic terms Mushrikeen, Kuffar, Ahlul Kitab, Jahiliyyah are much more descriptive.

Most Christians today would consider Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism as pagan/heathen religions.

Judaism and Islam believe in the same one God as Christians, so they are out of that definition.

Firstly, it is a news for me that expressing opinion against Indus Valley Civilization is Fitnah. I didnt knew previously that IVC has religious sanctity in your version of Islam.

Nevertheless, your advice is well received. Inshallah, I will strive hard against the Fitnah of secularism, liberalism and ethnic nationalism. Still, maybe I am wrong and will try to educate myself. Only Prophets A.S are safe from mistakes. I have no hard feelings against anyone, you are all my brothers and I respect your opinion. But, can you people do the same by not issuing certificates of Ghadari?

Secondly, I dont think you have any authority to restrict me to speak about my religion.

Let’s try to be more constructive in facing the onslaught of challenges we face as Pakistanis and also Muslims.

For this, we need to stand united, brother to brother, and use all means to combat the negative propaganda against us.

For far too long, this propaganda has been furthered that we are an artificial nation, by many enemies/rivals such as India, Afghan secular nationalists, Iranians, Arabs, and the West.

By recovering our past history, we seek to counter this false narratives and show that our identity, geographical and cultural, is truly distinct in the world.

Take a look, for example, at our culture which is far closer to Turkey than any other nation. We don’t have much in common with India at all.

We are very much aliens to each other, and there is a racial component in this along with the obvious religious differences.